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The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

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Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#351

There are a lot of steps that I've observed in CA that would seem to cause drought rather than prevent it, this is one of them. - Aggressively irrigating water away from hills / plateaus, presumably to prevent mudslides onto road infrastructure. - Tree-farms, everywhere throughout Southern California. - Steps like this that appear to further prevent maintenance of any sort of below-ground aquifer. And even better, -…

I was amazed when I learned that building out your own rain catchment system using rain barrels, in California, is illegal. It's considered theft of natural resources.

I wonder how much cumulative effect regulations like that have on keeping peak usage rates high?

Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they have ever added one of these useless restrictions on California yet it's been mostly posturing. They blame the lawn, and you have people peacocking about their dry lawns in an effort to gain social brownie points. I'm surprised they still blame the lawn and havent moved on to pools or something more easily associated with wealth to really try and stir the poor vs rich debate. Meanwhile even if no g…

We have a brown lawn because our water district was given a budget based upon population, and they decided to enforce it by restricting outdoor use.

You have a brown lawn because you haven’t embraced xeriscaping.

Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#354
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about making the price graduated. Each household has a low price up to a certain point (a reasonable amount for indoor use of the household) and after that it's market price.

Some households have more residents than others. I don't particularly want intrusive government monitoring of who lives where just for the sake of water allocations. No thanks.

Get an estimate of the maximum people/bedroom in the area, then judge each house based on that. I think the city already knows how many bedrooms each house has.

Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could divert the Columbia. 265,000 cubic feet per second (7,500 m3/s) just begin to be used.

Resurrect NAWPA, GRAND, and GCNA!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power... > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recycling_and_Northern_D... >

I suspect there should be some open discussion about things akin to these, if not them exactly.

I have a sneaking suspicion that some of our issues are caused by the older projects having been incredibly massive in scope and daring, and now refusing to consider similar projects with what we have and know now.

For example, I'm not sure we'd even consider let alone build the Oroville or Hoover dam today. That may be a good thing ... or maybe it's not even considered.

Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal and immoral are entirely two different words. So if you are accused of doing something immoral and your only replay is "but it within legal bounds" my only take away is that you agree that it is immoral as hell, but would rather not talk about it.

Literally no one has given an argument on the morality of using water to grow food, they just assume that their opinion is the correct one and anyone who doesn’t agree is, I don’t know, worthy of ad hominem attacks. I expect a lot more from HN honestly. I really don’t care about the morality of water usage in California because that’s someone else’s problem, what I do care about is all the talk of using the governmen…

> Literally no one has given an argument on the morality of using water to grow food

Correct, that is a complete straw man. The argument was about wasteful use of water, which is legal but arguably immoral.

> I really don’t care about the morality of water usage in California because that’s someone else’s problem,

Are you sure you wanted to say that part out loud?

> seize private property because they think they both have the right and they can use it better than the rightful owners — this is the kind of moral issue I worry about.

You are aware of "eminent domain", no? That is not a new thing. Also it is not about "private property" but about entitlements bought from the government.

Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US civil war was primarily over different modes of production, not slavery directly. The British working class was forced to pay the former slavers until a few years ago, while the former slaves got nothing. That was in no way just or good or useful.

Why are you trying to white wash the civil war? It was fought over slavery. That is what the declarations of independence signed by the confederate states actually say. They spell it out. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati...

You misunderstand me. The ruling class in the north didn’t care about slavery, just their own profits. It just so happened that they were in competition with the ruling class in the south, whose wealth depended on slavery.

Of course many workers did care about slavery and wanted to end it, so they allied themselves to the northern ruling class.

Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal and immoral are entirely two different words. So if you are accused of doing something immoral and your only replay is "but it within legal bounds" my only take away is that you agree that it is immoral as hell, but would rather not talk about it.

Literally no one has given an argument on the morality of using water to grow food, they just assume that their opinion is the correct one and anyone who doesn’t agree is, I don’t know, worthy of ad hominem attacks. I expect a lot more from HN honestly. I really don’t care about the morality of water usage in California because that’s someone else’s problem, what I do care about is all the talk of using the governmen…

"using the government to seize private property"

Hey, I hear you. Property rights are important.

The thing is, not all property rights are equal. Some are more established than others.

Owning land and owning our own tangible possessions are some of the most firmly established rights. Even in these cases there are carve-outs for public good (taxes, eminent domain) but I'm right there with you that we should seek to preserve these property rights above all else.

But there are other property rights which are much less well established, and which change over time. Copyright, for example, is a relatively new property right and it has changed, expanded, significantly since its inception. When we talk about reducing the scope of copyright, are we talking about seizing private property? Well, maybe, but only in the same sense that extending copyright is seizing public property and making it private.

Water rights in human history are older than copyright, but the particular structure of western water rights in California is newer and less well-established. In fact, the basic structure of water rights is very different in the western US than in the eastern, and this difference is a major source of our water troubles. This didn't matter for a long time, but now it matters a lot.

Talking about correcting these types of incongruities inherent in the way we structure ownership is substantially different from the banal picture you paint of seizing tangible, real private property.

Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#359
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US civil war was primarily over different modes of production, not slavery directly. The British working class was forced to pay the former slavers until a few years ago, while the former slaves got nothing. That was in no way just or good or useful.

> That was in no way just or good or useful I think the people who stopped being slaves, along with their descendants, would disagree.

It was not good that the slavers were paid, instead of paying reparations to the former slaves.

Re: The fight against drought in California has a new tool: The restrictor

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally no one has given an argument on the morality of using water to grow food, they just assume that their opinion is the correct one and anyone who doesn’t agree is, I don’t know, worthy of ad hominem attacks. I expect a lot more from HN honestly. I really don’t care about the morality of water usage in California because that’s someone else’s problem, what I do care about is all the talk of using the governmen…

> Literally no one has given an argument on the morality of using water to grow food Correct, that is a complete straw man. The argument was about wasteful use of water, which is legal but arguably immoral. > I really don’t care about the morality of water usage in California because that’s someone else’s problem, Are you sure you wanted to say that part out loud? > seize private property because they think they both…

> Are you sure you wanted to say that part out loud?

Sure, why not.

I’m currently in the Central Valley and every other farm has a sign about water something or other, they don’t need me advocating for them.

> You are aware of "eminent domain", no?

Of course but that’s not what was being proposed. The suggestion was to kick out the Saudis because they are growing crops in California and that’s not okay because reasons.

The basic proposal is to nationalize foreign owned assets like they do in places like Venezuela and I’m not fine with that. We have the rule of law for a reason and violating the property rights of a group of people so they can be used as a scapegoat is not something I want to be done in my homeland or in my name.

If people really want extremist viewpoints on water rights then I propose that if you aren’t a native born Californian then you are the problem. California water for Californians is my new slogan…

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