How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct • Hacker News Board

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#61

Post by philwelch » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 7:39 PM UTC

microarchitect wrote: post #43

philwelch wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name an economic system that doesn't have similar flaws? Economic systems only usable by hunter-gatherers don't count, unless your real argument is with civilization rather than capitalism.

You ask this question as if it were a rhetorical question. Is there any reason to believe that such an economic system that also combines much of "good" properties of capitalism cannot exist? Disciplines like game theory and mechanism design have made tremendous advances over the last few decades. Surely we can put these ideas to work in designing better political and economic systems.

It wasn't a rhetorical question. Or rather, it remains a valid rhetorical question until it receives a satisfactory answer. Until that point, all supposed flaws with capitalism are really flaws with all industrial civilizations observed thus far.

Tangentially, no real world economic system is "designed". They evolve out of competing interests. Even if you did design a system and implement it perfectly, it would have unintended consequences. We can't perfectly implement pre-designed political and economic systems, though; every attempt seems to turn into a bloodbath.

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#62

Post by 1010010111 » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 7:43 PM UTC

The automatic transmission does not cause a species' extinction. People's actions cause extinctions. The title is perhaps revealing about how we think and how we rationalise or justify our actions.

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#63

Post by sliverstorm » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 7:59 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #55

sliverstorm wrote: post #52

That's a sharp irony, to think the anti-whaling community of the 60's and 70's was driving around with whale oil in their cars! I wonder if they had any idea?

I wonder how much driving they did, though. Personally, I have always avoided cars and environmental impact is one of the major reasons. Of course I still benefit from cars, I am aware of that (goods get transported by cars, which I then consume). Just saying that some environmentalists actually also avoid driving.

Are anti-whale hunters actually environmentalists though? I mean, is opposing the hunting of whales an environmental thing? I always figured they were more of the animal rights category, and while some people might be both, animal rights != environmentalism.

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#64

Post by taejo » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 8:14 PM UTC

microarchitect wrote: post #43

philwelch wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name an economic system that doesn't have similar flaws? Economic systems only usable by hunter-gatherers don't count, unless your real argument is with civilization rather than capitalism.

You ask this question as if it were a rhetorical question. Is there any reason to believe that such an economic system that also combines much of "good" properties of capitalism cannot exist? Disciplines like game theory and mechanism design have made tremendous advances over the last few decades. Surely we can put these ideas to work in designing better political and economic systems.

For those who don't know, "mechanism design" is the extremely interesting field which is the "opposite" of game theory: instead of analysing how rational players act in a certain game, it asks what game will force rational players to act in the desired way.

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#65

Post by tomkinstinch » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 8:18 PM UTC

In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, candles made from spermaceti were used as standard photometric illuminants. They burned more brightly than even today’s paraffin candles, and could be made in a reproducible way [1].

NASA used spermaceti as a binder for joining iron particles to acetate for longer-lasting data storage tapes [2], and one author indicates that it was used more recently as a lubricant on the Voyager probe and the Hubble Space Telescope[3].

It's a sad story about our (over) exploitation of the seas, but very interesting history.

I wonder if any research has been done on producing cetyl palmitate via recombinant DNA synthesis. Imagine having a vat of E. coli or yeast producing it.

As the article mentions, jojoba oil is a decent substitute. I use jojoba around the house to fix squeaky hinges, etc.

1. http://books.google.com/books?id=DI4AAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA183&#...

2. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/327/5971/1322.full

3. http://books.google.com/books?id=y2zXTivayCQC&pg=PA344#v...

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#66

Post by rayiner » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 8:54 PM UTC

rsanchez1 wrote: post #9

It boggles the mind why the car companies lobbied to keep whale hunting when their numbers were already so low. They wanted a few more years of automatic transmission working at then-current levels, and then what? The same mass transmission failures that happened, only without anymore whales left. Poachers are similarly mind boggling. Instead of leaving a viable population to harvest more animal parts (not saying it'…

Classic tragedy of the commons situation.

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#67

Post by rayiner » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 8:57 PM UTC

_THE_PLAGUE wrote: post #7

tyng wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think human should be playing God?

It is not playing God to hunt to get the resources we need, like, say, hunting buffalo for their meat and fur. That is just survival. We need the whale oil, so hunting them is no more playing God than is hunting buffalo. I do not see a problem here.

Buffalo, ironically another species we nearly hunted to extinction.

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#68

Post by Florin_Andrei » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 9:26 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #41

blhack wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dive-master friend has told me that the bends isn't an issue if you're holding your breath. The bends is a result of the air mixture that you're breathing with a SCUBA. This is why freedivers can dive down to 100meters, and then come back up quickly without dieing.

This is not true. DCS has been found in cases of free-divers who perform repeated deep dives. The primary gas that causes DCS is nitrogen, which exists in large quantities in the air you are breathing now. The reason you don't often see DCS in free divers is that it takes time for the high-pressure nitrogen to dissolve in the blood and enter tissue.

So, it's not a problem if you dive once and go home. But it is a problem if you dive again, and again, and again.

Makes sense.

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#69

Post by bdunbar » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 9:33 PM UTC

borism wrote: post #59

bdunbar wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poachers are similarly mind boggling. Instead of leaving a viable population to harvest more animal parts ... they hunt down every last animal then move on to other animals. Poaching makes sense to the poacher. Take a guy I might or might not be related to. When he was growing up his family was dirt-poor and rural. Taking game out of season meant the difference between eating and starvation. Hard on the deer, if you…

yeah, two guys all of us might or may not be related to... one have domesticated deer, offered good conditions for it to breed (protected it from other predators including hunters like himself) and then he and his children prospered off their cattle... the other one just hunted his food to extinction... guess who's children have survived to tell the story?

the other one just hunted his food to extinction

All of mine - and your - ancestors have done just that. They found new sources for food or they didn't become our ancestors.

I get what you are saying about hunting one's food to extinction, how it's a bad idea.

Do you get what _I_ am talking about when I say that poachers don't _care_ about tomorrow, that they are do poor and desperate that today is all that matters?

Re: How automatic transmission almost made sperm whales extinct

#70

Post by eCa » Mon, Nov 21, 2011, 9:50 PM UTC

_THE_PLAGUE wrote: post #4

Whaling needs to be brought back. Sperm whales are prevalent once again, so controlled harvesting of them should be possible just like hunting deer or anything else. This creates jobs, and contributes to finding renewable energy sources. Furthermore, because without whaling sperm whales have no predators they are getting abundant and taking up too much of the marine ecosystem's food supply. We need to limit their num…

What is your position on population control of humans?