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We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

backreaction.blogspot.com

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Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#431
post #313
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a great deal of evidence, philosophically and rationally, for the existence of God. The Big Bang, first theorized by theoretical physicist and Catholic priest Georges Lamaitre, states the universe sprang into existence 13.7b years ago; it was not eternal as previously thought. And we know from observation that everything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence. This suggests that the universe was…

This reasoning does not hold up. Science does not claim the universe needs a cause to come into existance. Your premise is already wrong. Science tries to come up with explanations for the observed reality in our universe. It does not claim to know what is outside the observable universe or what laws of physics exist or don't exist there. You follow the extremely common logical fallacy that because you want there to…

> "Where's the proof that a universe can't cause itself"

What we observe in nature. Everything in nature that begins to exist was caused by something else. (Some have suggested quantum exceptions to this rule, but even those claims are tenuous at best.)

The best observable evidence we have is that everything that begins to exist must be caused.

While atheist philosophers like Bertrand Russel once believed the universe was eternal -- and therefore didn't need to be caused -- it was the Big Bang theory that proved otherwise. The universe had a beginning, therefore it has a cause. My conviction, then, is that God really does exist, and the he caused the universe to exist.

> "Clearly he could prevent that...clearly he can't be [good] with all the shit going on"

You're entering territory that philosophers and theologians have been discussing for millenia. I won't pretend to have the real answer for you, but one answer I've found reasonable is that if God prevents evil, He also prevents free choice; free will. It is better to exist in a world with free will -- even if it means some people abuse that for evil -- than to exist in a world where free will doesn't exist.

On the same theme of evil and suffering, what is more problematic is if God doesn't exist, then evil is subjective. Only if God exists and right from wrong are legislated by God do we have a grounded morality, one where we can definitely say what is good and what is evil.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#432
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>religious babble Why is religion held in such contempt when there is so much science that is just as much "babble", but held in high regard?

Because the whole premise and foundation of religion is that you ought to believe things absent evidence and without good reasons (that’s what faith is). If you have good reasons to believe something you give the reason; religion does not and should not, especially with its centuries-long history of malice and suppression towards free and scientific thought, deserve any credibility when it comes to matters of facts.

Religion equals faith, is very much a Christian idea. There are other religions that are based on ritual and tradition which don't expect such an epistemology from their adherents.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with Hossenfelder isn't so much that she rejects string theory, lots of people do that. No the problem is that she's pivoted into declaring the entire enterprise of cosmology and particle physics pointless, when she says """How about you wait, and we talk again in 10 billion years.""" this is not so much a joke as a thinly disguised a deeply held conviction. There's no need for a secret cabal to explain w…

You sound very knowledgable about this, so I guess I'm mostly addressing any readers of this thread when I recommend Lost in Math as a prerequisite for making that judgement. Of the four I mentioned, it's the most personal / autobiographical / reflective. She's obvious pissed off, and that should be taken into account when evaluating her assertions. Woit is way more pissed off, and probably the better mathematician.…

If there was a time were doubting string theory was career suicide, its wasn't in 2000 and certainly not 2010, those where the years when Woit was riding high on his book and "crisis in physics" was a popular phrase.

Honestly I think the biggest problem is that you have the timeline wrong, string theory reached its zenith in the 90's, but already by 2002 Woit could give it a good public kicking and mostly get praise for it (if you trust his own account here: http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/arxiv-trackbacks.html I find it deeply funny that of the two of the people he reports as being angry with his beat down, one is the infamous Lubos Motl! ).

As an aside, from the tone with which Woit recounts how people wrote possibly mean things about him in the comments of a blog, I suspect he might simply not be a very nice person to interact with which explains why he might have had trouble in his career.

For example, when reporting that he complained to the arxiv admins, he's careful to note he was polite, which I think sounds like someone who unprompted confirms they were wearing pants to an interview...

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Einstein's equations are time reservable and deterministic, so the evolution has only one path and ultimately it doesn't matter which end you start at, you'll get to the other unique end point regardless. The problem is to get the correct start conditions that makes the other end of the path end up somewhere plausible. It is largely a matter of training and temperament if you think it's more rewarding to start from t…

Sure, the equations themselves lead to the same place. But this is only true if they are the right equations . If you look at an existing phenomenon that maybe relativity doesn't describe well enough, and find some modification to these equations that explains it better; and then you go and check that indeed this new model explains all known observations better - you have a pretty solid new theory. You can then expan…

Look, the entire problem is that wherever people start, their modifications lead to entirely wrong predictions.

To be very clear this also happens when you start with a theory that describes the local universe well, indeed the fact that when general relativity extrapolated backwards gives blatantly unphysical results is the entire issue we are trying to solve!

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#435
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does having texts with some degree of interpretation have to do with whether those texts are true or not? Sounds like a genetic fallacy. You are putting words in my mouth. I said texts that are vague and open to a lot of interpretation can cause a lot of issues. Especially when those interpretations are used to make life choices and doubly so when making choices about others. > My claim is that without religio…

Not all texts are vague and open to interpretation. A proper religion with strong scholarly underpinnings like Islam has this issue figured out. The Quran itself calls out the issue, and Muslim scholars from the very beginning have a foundation on which to base rulings. > so when making choices about others By living in society, someone is making choices on the behalf of another regardless of whether that society is…

>A proper religion with strong scholarly underpinnings like Islam has this issue figured out.

Wow, I'm surprised you went there. To this day many denominations of Islam are still killing each other over the "correct" interpretation.

You call out developed worlds as if they're immoral yet the most religious countries [0] also have a big overlap in having the most militant conflict [1]. Oh but they're happy, right? I wouldn't think so. Many of the least religious countries, such as the Scandinavian countries, often rank higher on happiness as well. Also in the developed world we can criticize our own countries more, generally, and so we have lots of free press that loves to prop up the negatives. Are Islamic countries generally free to criticize themselves so easily? Sorry to speak negatively of those countries but you invite such generalizations when you make such generalizations.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity#/media/File:Import...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#436
post #111

John Wheeler popularized the term "it from bit" and the idea of a participatory universe. The limits of human observation aside, it could be that the universe itself doesn't really know how it began. If a superheated plasma is indifferent to being in a 5 dimensional black hole as opposed to a state where only space exists, then, in a sense, there isn't any difference between the two explanations (given that the plasm…

The origin can’t be explained, because if it was explained it wouldn’t be the origin anymore. So the question of the origin is ill-posed. Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense. In the end, nothing makes sense. God must be laughing at us.

Even secondary states might be impossible to explain, by the GP argument.

> Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense.

The origin has infinite history.

> God must be laughing at us.

No, because God is, like us, the descendant of something else, or else has infinite history.

What if the history is cyclic? Then there is no origin.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I'll try. There are two senses to understand the word creator. I'll illustrate both by analogies to the way 'we' create as people: (1) A violinist is creating the music that you are currently hearing. Here and now in the present. (2) A painter created a painting in the 19th century, and you can see the artifact on the wall in a museum. In the case of (1) the creator brings the song into being out of nothing. Mo…

> So, it's important to remember that, for example, knowledgeable Christians refer to God as the creator in the sense of (1) I am very curious why you think that - given that the Bible and all common teachings of it that I've ever seen very explicitly define God as the creator in the second sense (Genesis very clearly describes past events - not just Let there be light and so on, which could be taken as metaphors for…

This content is nicely titled: 'Creation isn't what you think it is.' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o8mGHN9t10

It gives a nice quick and better overview of the point I was trying to bring out. The video here is produced by the Dominican House of Studies in Washington DC.

> I don't think the Pope believes what you are saying.

I can't speak for the Pope, but you can quite confident that the definition of creation expressed in the video is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church and very likely identical or essentially identical to the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox church.

> I am only saying that I don't think it is a common understanding of Christianity

You're Right! And I stand by my statement. :^) Common Christians need to do more homework.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#439
post #431
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reasoning does not hold up. Science does not claim the universe needs a cause to come into existance. Your premise is already wrong. Science tries to come up with explanations for the observed reality in our universe. It does not claim to know what is outside the observable universe or what laws of physics exist or don't exist there. You follow the extremely common logical fallacy that because you want there to…

> "Where's the proof that a universe can't cause itself" What we observe in nature. Everything in nature that begins to exist was caused by something else. (Some have suggested quantum exceptions to this rule, but even those claims are tenuous at best.) The best observable evidence we have is that everything that begins to exist must be caused. While atheist philosophers like Bertrand Russel once believed the univers…

  > What we observe in nature. Everything in nature that begins to exist was caused by something else. (Some have suggested quantum exceptions to this rule, but even those claims are tenuous at best.)

  > The best observable evidence we have is that everything that begins to exist must be caused.
Inside our observable universe? Yea most likely. We can't deduce that the same hold true outside the universe.

Einstein explained that nothing can move faster than light but the universe seems to be expanding faster than light so clearly the universe itself can follow different rules and of course anything theoretically outside of it could do pretty much anything for all we know (since we don't know anything about it).

  > While atheist philosophers like Bertrand Russel once believed the universe was eternal -- and therefore didn't need to be caused -- it was the Big Bang theory that proved otherwise. The universe had a beginning, therefore it has a cause. My conviction, then, is that God really does exist, and the he caused the universe to exist.
The big bang theory is not proven. That's what the video of the article talks about. It's a hypothesis amongst many about the origin of our universe. If you base your conviction of the existance of god on the big bang theory... I dunno what to say. Why does god follow from big bang? Just because there was a cause? Imagine you are an ant living inside a box. You never see anything outside the box. I've put the ants inside the box. You as an ant might believe something must have created the box. Even if that were true (which you can't prove from inside the box) then clearly that does not mean I am god, right? I couldn't care less about the beliefs of the ants and I have no idea if they worship me or not. But maybe they built a whole faith in me and a system of rules because one ant claims I spoke to it in its dreams. Reality though is that they are simply wrong and just made a whole lot of wrong assumptions.

  > You're entering territory that philosophers and theologians have been discussing for millenia.
And they still didn't come up with an answer. Likely never will.

  > I won't pretend to have the real answer for you, but one answer I've found reasonable is that if God prevents evil, He also prevents free choice; free will. It is better to exist in a world with free will -- even if it means some people abuse that for evil -- than to exist in a world where free will doesn't exist.
You can make some interesting thought experiments regarding that. If god created beings with free will then that means he can't be omnipotent because the beings are not bound by his will. If it is not his will but free will and as you said everything must have a cause... then what is the cause for our free decisions? Does that mean it is arbitrary? Random? If so then there is something outside of god and all he created. What is it? Or does free will mean there is no ultimate cause?

You called people doing evil an abuse of free will. But why is it abuse if god wanted it to be like that? Doesn't it mean that god wanted evil to exist? Otherwise he'd create a system with free will but with evil excluded. We would never know about evil being missing since he completely removed it from our reality. In the same line of thinking how would we know if we have true free will? What if there was a third thing next to good and evil? How can we know we have free will? And how can we say it is better to have free will than not? If I gave you the choice of living a life in which 100% of days you are happy or a life in which on random days you will be unhappy, which life would you choose?

  > On the same theme of evil and suffering, what is more problematic is if God doesn't exist, then evil is subjective. Only if God exists and right from wrong are legislated by God do we have a grounded morality, one where we can definitely say what is good and what is evil. 
Nope that is not true. We can have morals and ethics without god. You are accusing me of not having a grounded morality because I am not a theist which I find really offensive. Morals can emerge from simple logical arguments that will strive for the survival of our species and a well working society.

Good and bad are actually subjective. Muslims will find me eating pork as bad. For christians it wouldn't be bad. For christians it would be really bad if I had multiple wifes while muslims would be OK with it. Who is right and who is wrong? If you pick either one then you claim that some religions are correct and others wrong. How did you decide which ones are the correct ones? It also means there can only be one final true religion because if there are two religions then they must differ in something and both can't be right at the same time.

You say god legislates what is good and bad. Ignoring that different religions as outlined above disagree about what is good or bad, how exactly do we know for sure that the claimed laws have been handed by god? That someone pronounces so is not good enough.

Do animals who seem to also have a system of good and bad have religous believes? My dog feels really guilty when he makes a mess. Who told him about god and that he shall not make a mess?

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I'll try. There are two senses to understand the word creator. I'll illustrate both by analogies to the way 'we' create as people: (1) A violinist is creating the music that you are currently hearing. Here and now in the present. (2) A painter created a painting in the 19th century, and you can see the artifact on the wall in a museum. In the case of (1) the creator brings the song into being out of nothing. Mo…

> knowledgeable Christians refer to God as the creator in the sense of (1) How does this relate to the idea of creation in 7 days? Doesn't it imply that creation is something that happened in a particular point in time (ie the first 7 days in time), like (2)?

Yes. The Bible does include a creation of the world story which if taken literally would lead to an interpretation of God as the creator in sense (2).

But the point is that there is this other sense, (1) above, in which God is the creator. This is the dominant sense and is present throughout the Bible as well as the classical tradition that unifies the teachings of the bible with basic philosophy. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.'

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