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Day ahead electricity prices for EU

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Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#211

Post by gibolt »

vorpalhex wrote: post #190
pojzon wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive tried to explain this issue to EVs fanatics, but nobody listens. Anytime you mention energy transmision issues - you get total backlash. We wasted EU money on pointless stuff while we could have upgraded our transit cables etc.

California has to shut down their grid occasionally just because it's in such poor repair that wildfires are a risk. I can't imagine how they are going to handle everyone getting EVs.

Solar and distributed storage help fight this. A significant amount of charging off peak also actually reduces the load, making things more reliable and cleaner.

Fire related grid shutdowns are usually hyperlocal, meaning the few who need to charge during that time can just run a town over. (keep in mind that EVs can be charged just less than once a week for average use)

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#212

Post by sofixa »

locallost wrote: post #119
Toutouxc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about "short term screwed" is that in some countries the "screwed" is actually "people having to pay more than 100 % of their income for electricity". Theoretically, long term, this could all work out nicely and steer more people and governments towards renewables and decentralized generation, but the short term consequences are starting to look brutal.

No, we agree here. I'm not trying to minimize the impact. Factories will shut down, leading to job loses, shortages which will again cause inflation etc. But we can't change that anymore. What we can do is build more capacity.

> Factories will shut down, leading to job loses, shortages which will again cause inflation etc

Not necessarily. The same thing (forced closures of factories) was handled gracefully without job losses during the pandemic through various unemployment schemes. I see no reason why the same can't happen again.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#213

Post by number6 »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #209
pojzon wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive tried to explain this issue to EVs fanatics, but nobody listens. Anytime you mention energy transmision issues - you get total backlash. We wasted EU money on pointless stuff while we could have upgraded our transit cables etc.

Germany’s obsession with solar and wind is absolutely baffling. It takes very little to know that Germany simply does not have the conditions for large scale solar. Yet it was pushed so heavily in lieu of nuclear power. Absurd.

Nuclear isn't going well for France right now. And most of the EU uran comes from Russia

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#214

Post by moogly »

sprak wrote: post #23

Sweden has four zones and according to [1] tomorrow's price will be from north to south: Zone 1: 14,25 cents/kWh Zone 2: 14,25 cents/kWh Zone 3: 108,64 cents/kWh Zone 4: 201,63 cents/kWh 1 Swedish krona is 0,094 USD. So between 1,3 and 20 American cents per kWh. Most people live in Zone 3 followed by Zone 4. Facebook's datacenter is in Zone 1. [1]: https://elen.nu

Facebook will have a much lower price anyway. Large industries (like steel plants, mining operations, paper mills, saw mills, and, yes, data centers) in Sweden have not been affected yet since they are not normally directly exposed to the spot price due to different price protection strategies[0]. There is no way Facebook pays consumer spot prices. Plus Sweden has the lowest electricity tax in the EU[1] for these companies. They raised it from 0 in 2019 due to EU regulations to 0.005 SEK/kWh. Consumer electricity tax today is 0.45 SEK/kWh including VAT. I believe there is also a way to write off a part of the electricity costs.

[0]: https://www.svd.se/a/rE0R9R/elpriserna-nar-inte-industrin-ha... (paywall)

[1]: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/lagst-elpriser-till-indus...

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#215

Post by sofixa »

jakewins wrote: post #174
konschubert wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because their nuclear power plants are currently going belly up one after another. Many of them are the same model, with parts from the same factory. That factory made some bad parts. They need to be exchanged. It takes a lot of time, many months.

Also significant capacity loss from plants unable to run in droughts, since they rely on cooling water that has now dried up. Nukes reliant on Loire valley water are currently curtailing production.

> Nukes reliant on Loire valley water are currently curtailing production.

That's old information, the Loire is back up to normal levels after the last two weeks of rain, so nuclear power plants should be operating as before.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#216

Post by sph »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #127
capableweb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why nobody is doing anything about it > I've read somewhere Before wondering why someone, somewhere is not doing something, confirm that the thing is actually happening in the first place.

EDF, the French electricity provider is able to produce electricity at about 20€/MWh. It is forced to sell it to leeches (read: "competition"), up to 100TWh, at 42€/MWh through a mechanism called ARENH. Should they need this 100TWh (and they do), they are forced to buy it at current market prices, or anywhere between 530 and 715€/MWh. The "competition" are resellers that have not installed a single MW of production,…

> It is forced to sell it to leeches

By whom?

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#217

Post by bjourne »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #90
bjourne wrote: post #60

Remember that, while prices have soared, electricity generation has not become more expensive. The "electricity crisis" is a crisis for European consumers but a massive windfall for producers. This is a market failure - not an electricity failure.

> electricity generation has not become more expensive A lot of generation in Europe is using gas, so it very much has. It's more or less a normal market experiencing a jump in price on inputs. If you can produce cheaper than the market price then you make lots of money. That's normal. The market is telling buyers to use less electricity and sellers to produce more. It's how markets work.

But that just moves the question. Why has natural gas become more expensive when it has not become more expensive to produce? Furthermore, only 15% of Germany's power production comes from natural gas (https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c...) and the market price has "only" tripled in the last year (https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/08/25/europes-gas-pr...) while electricity prices have increased over 600%. This is price gouging.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#218

Post by chrisseaton »

vorpalhex wrote: post #190
pojzon wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive tried to explain this issue to EVs fanatics, but nobody listens. Anytime you mention energy transmision issues - you get total backlash. We wasted EU money on pointless stuff while we could have upgraded our transit cables etc.

California has to shut down their grid occasionally just because it's in such poor repair that wildfires are a risk. I can't imagine how they are going to handle everyone getting EVs.

In most places electricity cables are buried. In California they have them blowing around in the trees so they start fires.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#219

Post by legulere »

JohnTordur wrote: post #11
jontro wrote: post #2

Each country has more than one zone. Also the rate varies hour by hour

Not Germany, they have single price zone which is absolutely insane. Denmark has two and is much smaller.

Luxemburg also is in the same zone as Germany and Austria used to be too.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#220

Post by bambax »

google234123 wrote: post #115
unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All energy problem reduce to problems of energy transportation. We have a huge fusion reactor in the sky. The challenge is capture and transit. The problem is not incidental; it's fundamental.

A huge fusion reactor in the sky that isn't available in the evening or when it's cloudy.

It's always available somewhere, so it is, in fact, a transport problem.
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