Day ahead electricity prices for EU • Hacker News Board

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#81

Post by im3w1l » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 1:57 PM UTC

sph wrote: post #66

bjourne wrote: post #60

Remember that, while prices have soared, electricity generation has not become more expensive. The "electricity crisis" is a crisis for European consumers but a massive windfall for producers. This is a market failure - not an electricity failure.

Can anybody explain why that is? Why a country that generates 99+% of its own electricity like UK is seeing price increases? Everybody blames the war, but AFAIK UK imports 1% of its gas from Russia, and its electricity is generated locally, so why are prices increasing? I would expect grain and wheat to increase 500%, not power.

Electricity is very inelastic, which means that a tiny change in supply can massively affect the price. Only when it gets super expensive do people to start cutting down on their consumption, and supply and demand come into balance.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#82

Post by daneel_w » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 1:57 PM UTC

admissionsguy wrote: post #35

My move to Sweden continues to pay unexpected dividends. And what the map shows is I suppose based on the average for the whole country - it's several times cheaper in the north (the "real" Sweden with auroras and stuff) than in the south. Let's be real though, the society will fall apart before energy costs become a big problem for people working in tech.

I came here when I was 8 years old, and to me the "real" Sweden is everything from south to north, not just some single isolated part. I don't find the notion offensive, but it's contusive and somewhat foreign.

It's great that your small urban household can take the hit. It's becoming a real problem for single parents in the south.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#83

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 1:57 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #47

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no clue about Czechia but that’s basically happening in Austria. Austria mainly produces energy from renewables which did not go up in price buy since the price on the exchanges is determined by the most expensive source we still pay exorbitant prices. Producers are making all the money right now.

By “producers” of course you mean “those producers that invested in sovereign energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, …)” Sounds like good investments are paying off, and bad investments (Germany collaborating with Putin despite Trump’s prescient advice & mockery) are not. Capitalism at it’s finest! Too bad average people are paying the price, but in democracy, that’s literally what they voted for (non-sensical top-dow…

I’m not sure what you are trying to say. The reasons for the energy prices have nothing to do with any European bureaucracy. If anything more investments into green energy would have put us into a better position.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#84

Post by ISL » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 1:58 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #4

I've read somewhere that Czechs (day ahead price of 463EUR/MWh) produce electricity at 0.1EUR/MWh, then sell it to an exchange in Germany and buy it back for the "market" price. Somebody over there is getting extremely rich for no reason and I am wondering why nobody is doing anything about it...

Assuming that these statements are entirely true (sibling comments suggest otherwise), then "somebody over there" had the foresight or luck to install generating capacity ahead of tremendous demand.

If they hadn't done so, someone else might be getting even-more rich (per kWhr) by charging higher prices across an even wider geography.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#85

Post by locallost » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

sph wrote: post #66

bjourne wrote: post #60

Remember that, while prices have soared, electricity generation has not become more expensive. The "electricity crisis" is a crisis for European consumers but a massive windfall for producers. This is a market failure - not an electricity failure.

Can anybody explain why that is? Why a country that generates 99+% of its own electricity like UK is seeing price increases? Everybody blames the war, but AFAIK UK imports 1% of its gas from Russia, and its electricity is generated locally, so why are prices increasing? I would expect grain and wheat to increase 500%, not power.

It's because not all electricity costs the same to produce, but the price is the same, determined by the most expensive producer. There is a shortage of electricity because France is generating a lot less than normal and this is made up by other countries. I would guess the UK is impacted by higher demand as well, thus the more expensive producers are delivering jacking up the prices for everyone.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#86

Post by Tade0 » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

Electricity map gives a more detailed view on the situation, including imports/exports:

https://electricitymaps.com/

Poland has an interesting story behind the price: the government passed legislation which switched from net-metering to net-billing with the start of April, so people rushed to build as many home PV installations as possible to get grandfathered into the previous scheme.

A whopping 4-5GW estimated was added to the grid in this period, almost doubling the installed capacity, creating a unique mix of coal and solar in the summer.

Now during the day it's what's keeping prices below €250/MWh because even with net-metering the price of this electricity is closer to €175/MWh.

In 2019 that would have been horribly expensive, but it's safe to say those times are gone for good.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#87

Post by wongarsu » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 2:00 PM UTC

neverrroot wrote: post #20

Green without a proper plan? Germany/Europe will be the green poster children on how not to do it. Guess who will damage the environment more in the end.

Why single out Germany when there are 14 countries on that list with higher prices?

Gas as a transitionary energy source is something lots of countries have bet on. Meanwhile France is doing a great job showcasing the problems of Nuclear during heat waves (they will be the ones laughing in the Winter though)

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#88

Post by stark98 » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 2:00 PM UTC

pveierland wrote: post #50

Current spot price in northern Norway is €10.16/MWh, while it is €745.08/MWh in southern Norway (73x the price), largely due to limitations in transport networks between the electricity zones. The price in the northern zone is so low that some hydro plants have stopped producing electricity as they would be losing money at the current price level. https://www.skandiaenergi.no/dagens-spotpriser/ Electricity Maps has a…

Are there any plans to build an infrastructure to connect both networks? It seems like a great idea in the current situation

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#89

Post by JohnJamesRambo » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 2:00 PM UTC

admissionsguy wrote: post #57

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you live before? How hard was it to move there?

Poland. As an EU citizen working online, it was as easy as buying a plane ticket, renting an AirBNB, registering a company, and waiting over a year until I got connected to the healthcare / social security system and such.

Wow that is really neat.

Is there ever a problem with everyone wanting to move to all the good places haha? I wonder if they will get really expensive to live in like California and New York. Not that I’m saying CA and NY are the “good” places of USA but many perceive it that way.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#90

Post by dkjaudyeqooe » Sat, Aug 27, 2022, 2:00 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #60

Remember that, while prices have soared, electricity generation has not become more expensive. The "electricity crisis" is a crisis for European consumers but a massive windfall for producers. This is a market failure - not an electricity failure.

> electricity generation has not become more expensive

A lot of generation in Europe is using gas, so it very much has. It's more or less a normal market experiencing a jump in price on inputs.

If you can produce cheaper than the market price then you make lots of money. That's normal.

The market is telling buyers to use less electricity and sellers to produce more. It's how markets work.