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Psychedelic drugs take on depression

nature.com

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Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#51

Post by esperent »

colechristensen wrote: post #26
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

Ketamine is a magical drug, I've told this story a hundred times on HN but it cured my depression overnight. I was given a large hit of it by a doctor after a horrible accident, I went into a K-hole and had a spiritual experience, but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind, the simplest pleasures of life made me happy, like smelling fresh coff…

Here's a reminder: "Depression" is just a label put on a cluster of symptoms to make diagnoses consistent across medical providers. It is definitely not a singular condition with one cause and a consistent treatment across patients. It is likely a multitude of conditions which will respond differently to many treatments. Some people with a depression diagnosis will be very disappointed with ketamine treatment.

No doubt, but that applies to all depression treatments. Most of which have a far higher risk of side effects, and many of which take weeks or months to show an effect if they do work.

Ketamine treatment takes an hour, with virtually no chance of side effects, and you'll know if it works within a few hours. Even if it only works for a tiny percentage of depression sufferers, it should be first line treatment. As it is, it seems to work for a reasonably large percentage of people.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#53

Post by etaioinshrdlu »

whiskyagogo wrote: post #5
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

Ketamine is a magical drug, I've told this story a hundred times on HN but it cured my depression overnight. I was given a large hit of it by a doctor after a horrible accident, I went into a K-hole and had a spiritual experience, but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind, the simplest pleasures of life made me happy, like smelling fresh coff…

It replaced my lifelong fear (terror?) of death with what I can honestly say is now curiosity. You can experience only so many deaths in your mind before you learn to be comfortable with the idea.

I am not convinced that a ketamine-induced feeling of death is at all relatable to actual death. There is plenty of neural activity remaining.

Is it possible you're just convinced it feels like death?

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#54

Post by virgildotcodes »

kirse wrote: post #42
heavyset_go wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite stories about psychedelic experiences is a friend's coworker dosing acid one weekend, coming back in on Monday, saying "I hate it here" and quitting on the spot. They went on to travel and start their own company, and are doing great for themselves. In my experience, psychedelics really help tear down the justifications we put up for the BS we tolerate in our daily lives and can help you connect wi…

psychedelics really help tear down the justifications we put up for the BS we tolerate in our daily lives Thing is you can do that with an extended weekend of fasting/meditation and solitude in the woods. Bring a notepad and pencil if you really want to lock in the new perspective. Bonus is that fasting is also widely known to be healthy. Plus how do you really know the causative agent of change was the drugs, what i…

>what if there was already the underlying emotional desire to do something and having the experience was more about creating the justification to act?

That's definitely part of it, and I think kind of what OP was alluding to in that the experience allows you to dissolve many of the cognitive habits you've built up over your life, allowing you to experience an extremely honest perception of your own mind.

I'm not sure if you've tried it yourself, but I have yet to find any other way to achieve that level of clarity. I understand in theory that a lot of people find their way there by meditation, but I don't have the discipline or attention span to get there.

Psychedelics are a way of making that state of being accessible to those who may lack the ability or the motivation to get there through other means.

I'll also say that of those I know who partake in both, psychedelics still offer incredibly powerful and profound experiences even to those who practice meditation seriously for years or decades.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#55

Post by tsol »

colechristensen wrote: post #32
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, your mileage may vary, as they say. Our bodies are all unique and so are our responses. It was a miracle for me, it might be completely ineffective for someone else.

I think it is more, or different than "our bodies are unique" and something else entirely. Saying someone has "depression" is like saying someone has "a stomach ache". The stomach ache might be Crohn's, an ulcer, food poisoning, or the aftermath of too many hot wings. All would show at least a somewhat similar cluster of symptoms, different based on the person, but all "stomach ache". Imagine the same for depression,…

Depression is a symptom, not exactly an illness. I mean we often treat it like one-- and call that Major Depressive Disorder-- but I expect in the future we'll be able to break it down to 'inflammatory disorder causing symptoms of depression', 'trauma disorder leading to symptoms of depression', etc

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#56

Post by tasty_freeze »

There are many personal anecdotes about how one treatment was a game changer. I don't doubt them, but as the article says, it doesn't work for everyone. I am posting this as a counterweight to all the glowing reports.

My wife has some chronic health conditions (EDS and ME/CFS and depression); I'm sure they are at least partially related. While ramping off of one antidepressant in anticipation of trying something different, her depression came roaring back, so the doctor prescribed ketamine infusions. It didn't help at all.

Part of the problem was the clinic. One of the (correct) refrains about psychedelics is the importance of "set and setting". To the employees, this was just one of eight infusions they were going to do that day and it was all very routine, but for someone who has never experienced psychedelics, an attentive, caring, gentle environment would have helped a lot. Being a woman, it was tremendously anxious for her to go into a closed room with a male nurse she had never met before and give up consciousness and control for half an hour. Having a different nurse every time wasn't great for building trust. There were some other things too, but ultimately the main thing was she experienced no benefit.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#57

Post by krrrh »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #2

They should not be lumping ketamine in with all the other psychedelics which act on the serotonin 2A receptor. I’m hesitant to say ketamine is a psychedelic at all. Regardless, I find .25 mg of Klonopin can get rid of my depression as well, they’ve known for a long time that depression has a strong linked glutamate excitation in certain parts of the brain.

Amongst psychedelic therapists it’s pretty normal to include Ketamine under the rubric of psychedelics these days, even though receptor purists might still object. Same is true of MDMA. From a subjective experience there’s no doubt that it’s different, but at psychedelic dose ranges most psychonauts will characterize it is a psychedelic experience, and ketamine can produce experiences every bit as weird and life altering as the tryptamines.

One interesting line of research on thinking about new ways to characterize this that they all can be characterized as re-opening critical periods of development. Gul Dolen at Johns Hopkins is spearheading this, and this interview with her is worth a listen.

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-psychoactive-84544756/ep...

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#58

Post by sibeliuss »

whiskyagogo wrote: post #5
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #3

Ketamine is a magical drug, I've told this story a hundred times on HN but it cured my depression overnight. I was given a large hit of it by a doctor after a horrible accident, I went into a K-hole and had a spiritual experience, but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind, the simplest pleasures of life made me happy, like smelling fresh coff…

It replaced my lifelong fear (terror?) of death with what I can honestly say is now curiosity. You can experience only so many deaths in your mind before you learn to be comfortable with the idea.

It's so wonderful to hear that you were able to overcome this.

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#59

Post by gratitoad »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #53
whiskyagogo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It replaced my lifelong fear (terror?) of death with what I can honestly say is now curiosity. You can experience only so many deaths in your mind before you learn to be comfortable with the idea.

I am not convinced that a ketamine-induced feeling of death is at all relatable to actual death. There is plenty of neural activity remaining. Is it possible you're just convinced it feels like death?

The point isn’t how similar (or not) the experiences in my mind are to actual death, it’s that at those times I’m convinced I am experiencing not just death, but total annihilation of my consciousness which is my personal best guess about what happens to us when we die. It’s not the moments leading up to death I’ve feared, it’s non-being and attachment to my own thoughts.

So then when I’ve experienced a series of “welp, here we go, I’m on my way to nothingness” and dealt with that terror in those moments, I’ve had the opportunity to accept that fate and even embrace the unknown.

And now that I’m not gripped by existential terror when I think of my own death, I find myself wondering if I’ll be surprised to find something else on the other side of it. And that’s way more fun :)

Re: Psychedelic drugs take on depression

#60

Post by nibbleshifter »

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #27
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but even more profound was the effect it had for 4 to 6 months after. It's important to note that this is an atypically long duration. In clinical studies, the duration of effects is more around 1-2 weeks. It's possible that the overall experience (including surviving an accident and getting a "second lease on life") was the trigger for 4-6 months of improvement, not just the medication you were given once. That's…

It definitely wasn't because of the accident, my life is ruined lol and at the time I was in horrific pain. But I can accept the timeline could be non-typical. It could also be the huge dose, the studies I've seen use lighter doses.

Smaller doses of ketamine (recreational doses) taken via nose tend to alleviate depression and anxiety for me for 1-2 weeks, depending on how much of it I do.

I've been meaning to travel sometime to a clinic for the infusion therapy (that comes with some talk therapy) as where I am now its nearly impossible to source clean ketamine reliably.

Pretty mild doses of psilocybin mushrooms tend to have a longer lasting effect (a month or so), and extremely large doses can work for a half a year or so.

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