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Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

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Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#101
post #3

Should you buy an EV? 1. You live in a private house where you can charge the car? - Yes 2. You don't have a charger at home? - No Simple, really :) . I always wanted to buy an EV but that's a deal breaker criteria. Also the secondary problem - author makes assumption about electricity price, but it almost doesn't matter at all if you are changing at the commercial stations only. They will charge you for as much as t…

If you have an accessible 120v outlet, it's extremely likely you can charge just with that. Evidence - had an ev since 2012, using only 120 volts. Only the most inefficient recent evs argue for higher voltage.

The reasons 120v garage charging won't work for you:

1. You commonly drive 200+ miles, need to come home, charge, driving 200 or 300 miles almost immediately.

When I need to do this I can go to a supercharger or fast dc charger, but that's rare. There's another alternative, I have used my house's dryer vent to charge at 30 amps, 220v maybe a dozen times in 10 years.

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#102
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t take that long to wire up new electrical stuff. Just the will to do it. We’re talking 3.3kw to 6.6kw a drop unless it’s a fast charger. (Edit-the wider spread the slower chargers probably the lesser need for fast chargers, too.) 3.3kw is about 120v/27.5A. Not negligible but no one worries about hooking up hair driers to the grid and they draw tons of power. Reference the places putting chargers on light po…

When's the last time someone and 10 of their neighbors dried their hair for 12 straight hours, though? It's not the instantaneous power draw from a single plug that people are worried about but rather the aggregate draw.

That turns out not to be a problem in the us, because the increased electricity use by expected ev charging is contained in our 2 or 3% increase per year. I expected this will be true for other places. Also in the us you find that people are using unneeded capacity at night.

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#103
post #74
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is: You're not standing around waiting for my car to charge. Your parked to do something else. Depending on where there is, there may well be enough density. Here, we have 129 stations, and half of them are free. It goes up to over 300 if you include the rest of the metro. We're not that large a city, either.

Imagine the road trip with an EV. We're driving from Chicago to Memphis (about 600 miles or two full charges of a Tesla). First question is "is there sufficient charging in the 200 - 300 mile distance? If you run out of charge, its a bit more difficult than "call AAA to bring you a gallon of gas" ( https://tiremeetsroad.com/2022/05/28/aaa-members-will-tow-tr... ). I'm sure that tow trucks will get to the point where…

The wsj article was kind of from an idiot. At the same time, it's true there aren't enough chargers and we are building them out and it should be as easy as "just drive".

Separate from that, if you have a tesla, this problem is not there because they have enough chargers and they are maintained. It's the clown car mixed private ev chargers that are broken, in bad locations and have low power. When tesla opens up their network (by adding the other common plug) I expect many of the other ev charger companies will go out of business or have to significantly improve their speed and quality. My 2012 tesla had around 250 miles range (drove it for 50k miles, after 3 years upgraded to the awd, still have that one, still has 265/270 original miles range.

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#104
post #94

I'm not buying an EV to save money. Right now the economics are a bit skewed, but I'd buy an EV even if gas was $1/gallon. Emissions are the reason why I want to buy an EV. Ditto for going solar, etc.

This sounds like burning the candle at both ends and I can't help but think the attitude is counter-productive. That is, if a gasoline powered engine is actually less expensive, why not drive the gas engine and invest or donate the savings towards alternative energy initiatives? That way EVs (and alternative energy in general) can flourish and become unequivocally better.

My opinion is that emissions cause enough harm that we need to not donate our way out the problem. To me that's like letting your pets have unwanted offspring and just donating to a local shelter to make up for it.

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#105
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teslas are now old enough that there's large-scale long-term battery degradation data available. They lose roughly 1%-2% of capacity per year (that's a linear approximation, actual degradation is steeper in the early years, tapers off later). So after 15 years you'd expect 70%-85% of the range left. Modern EVs have battery management systems that keep their temperature and other factors within the range that's gentle…

Even my LEAF (which has one of the worst battery management systems in terms of having passive cooling only) is 7.5 years old and has around 85% of its original capacity.

I guess I don’t understand why that’s acceptable. 15% degradation takes you from what 350 miles from full to just shy of 300. How much worse is it in the winter? None of those things happen in ICE vehicles that are much cheaper than even the cheapest BEV.

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#106

The "best" figures for a petrol car is 39mpg, which seems a bit low. My (diesel) car will do over 50, and it's over 10 years old and isn't famously economical.

Your use of the word "petrol" makes me wonder if you are aware of the difference between US gallons and UK/imperial gallons. UK gallons are larger volume and so give a higher MPG metric for the same vehicle.

There also are not many sub-compact cars marketed in the US, and the range of engine options is usually limited compared to similar vehicles marketed in Europe and the UK. Compacts like a Civic or Corolla would be considered efficient commuter vehicles by most people here, and might get around 40 MPG (US) in highway cruising and somewhere in the 30s as a combined figure (for non-hybrids).

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#107
post #101
post #3

Should you buy an EV? 1. You live in a private house where you can charge the car? - Yes 2. You don't have a charger at home? - No Simple, really :) . I always wanted to buy an EV but that's a deal breaker criteria. Also the secondary problem - author makes assumption about electricity price, but it almost doesn't matter at all if you are changing at the commercial stations only. They will charge you for as much as t…

If you have an accessible 120v outlet, it's extremely likely you can charge just with that. Evidence - had an ev since 2012, using only 120 volts. Only the most inefficient recent evs argue for higher voltage. The reasons 120v garage charging won't work for you: 1. You commonly drive 200+ miles, need to come home, charge, driving 200 or 300 miles almost immediately. When I need to do this I can go to a supercharger o…

Even the least efficient EVs still get some charge at 120v. One of the worst offenders only gets 1 mile per kWh so that's roughly 1 mile every hour at home. Even if your inefficient EV is only plugged in for the roughly 8 hours you need to sleep, that's still 8 more miles of range when you wake up than you had before you went to bed. A lot of people like to discount that as "basically nothing", but a gas car isn't going to have 8 more miles it can drive when you wake up. It's a subtle seeming shift, but it's still a useful shift, because it adds up. 8 extra miles a night is still 56 miles a week you don't need to "fast charge", even with the most inefficient sort of EV and the least time at home.

Cars spend more time parked than in use by a great margin, even among those drivers that drive hundreds of miles every week. The US is at a disadvantage with our 120v standard and that a lot of people don't think 120v is "adequate" for EV charging ("it's only an additional mile per hour range in my inefficient EV Hummer!"), but we should normalize 120v charging because it should be easy and affordable to almost every household and a lot of shared parking. We've more than a century of experience installing "regular plugs" everywhere. We could start there and do a lot of good in the US to encourage charging everywhere a car is parked. We have to reduce the stigma that it "isn't good enough" because people can't think fourth dimensionally that 1 mile per hour is "adequate" because it is still more than the car would have had otherwise.

Dryer plugs are great, too, but we don't have as many free circuits in our fuse boxes and circuit breaker boxes as we'd all like to put extra dryer plugs in all our garages, because the US made the mistake of standardizing on 120v instead of 220/240v like most of the rest of the world. (Thanks, Edison.~) We can start with regular plugs, and need to destagmatize it/normalize it if we want cheap charging everywhere and less focus on "how do we install chargers" as if it's this deeply complicated bootstrap process. We have outlets everywhere, let's use them better. We install new outlets all the time for relatively pennies (the labor investments far dwarfs the supplies/capital investments), we can install them near every parking lot a lot cheaper than we can add 240v circuits to parking lots (or "fast chargers"). If we can start to think of it as "adequate" because it is still additive.

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#108
post #101
post #3

Should you buy an EV? 1. You live in a private house where you can charge the car? - Yes 2. You don't have a charger at home? - No Simple, really :) . I always wanted to buy an EV but that's a deal breaker criteria. Also the secondary problem - author makes assumption about electricity price, but it almost doesn't matter at all if you are changing at the commercial stations only. They will charge you for as much as t…

If you have an accessible 120v outlet, it's extremely likely you can charge just with that. Evidence - had an ev since 2012, using only 120 volts. Only the most inefficient recent evs argue for higher voltage. The reasons 120v garage charging won't work for you: 1. You commonly drive 200+ miles, need to come home, charge, driving 200 or 300 miles almost immediately. When I need to do this I can go to a supercharger o…

I was recently tasked with moving a chevy bolt what was parked on the street too long to save it from being impounded.

It had sat there for quite a long time and wasn't anywhere near full when it was parked. When I got it the battery was in the orange where it stops telling you how much range is left and just says find a charger. I belive this kicks in at the 15-20 miles remaining range.

I moved the car about 10 miles to a residential driveway that has a 120ac plug.

When I left, the car was indicating it would be fully charged in 60 hours.

That's two and a half days to do what a gas station can do in 5 minutes.

Bottom line is relying on 120 to keep your car charged up is a fantasy unless your car usage is so low you might as well have a bicycle instead of a car.

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#109
post #74
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is: You're not standing around waiting for my car to charge. Your parked to do something else. Depending on where there is, there may well be enough density. Here, we have 129 stations, and half of them are free. It goes up to over 300 if you include the rest of the metro. We're not that large a city, either.

Imagine the road trip with an EV. We're driving from Chicago to Memphis (about 600 miles or two full charges of a Tesla). First question is "is there sufficient charging in the 200 - 300 mile distance? If you run out of charge, its a bit more difficult than "call AAA to bring you a gallon of gas" ( https://tiremeetsroad.com/2022/05/28/aaa-members-will-tow-tr... ). I'm sure that tow trucks will get to the point where…

> I'm sure that tow trucks will get to the point where they also have a charger, but we're in new territory here.

Tow trucks don't need chargers, they just need to drop your car off at the nearest charger.

This isn't even "new" territory: tow trucks tow things from point A to point B all the time. That's what tow trucks were built for.

It isn't "new" territory for EVs: Anecdotally, I had a friend tell me working as a tow truck near a "blind spot" at the time in Tesla's charging maps along an Interstate through one of the Plains states. (A blind spot that has since been filled.) There was a driver that drove that stretch regularly and couldn't get enough charge to make it to the next station so would regularly call for tow. (So regularly in that case that they'd call a day ahead or so and schedule it like an appointment and the tow truck would just be waiting around the "usual spot".)

> Aside from the "you're there for 5x longer", this means that to get the same throughput of vehicles served at the station it needs 5x to 10x more space than the gas station. This is where its going to be real interesting.

Though it likely will not ever need the exact same throughput because home charging and destination charging remove a lot of "local traffic" through fast chargers that gas stations still have to regularly serve.

Even in long distance travel destination chargers will shake up and decentralize a lot of the "station need". On a road trip you might not need "park at a Fry's while you shop", but you might still find use in "park at a restaurant while you sit down and eat" and "park at a cool gift shop while you shop for souvenirs" and "park at the neat tourist trap and explore a mini museum" and maybe even "park at a motel where you can catch a quick nap".

EVs could herald a return to the sorts of weird destinations that Route 66, as one clear nostalgia-filled example, made US long distance travel such an "exciting thing" and that lots of people have great nostalgia for even if most of today's Route 66 is a rusted memory of itself. I know plenty of long distance drivers that might like a small return to that Americana tradition of weird tourist traps and strange excuses to stop, and even AAA still thinks you should pay them for trip tiks even in the internet age of GPS because they still think they can find some of that nostalgia for you.

With EVs, we don't have to cluster around the logistics of gas stations anymore and could have all sorts of chargers "off the beaten path" (of the Interstates). What sort of weird local and regional places could install chargers? There's all sorts of creativity to be explored here.

Re: Should You Buy an EV? A calculator to figure it out

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this view a lot - my main rebuttal is 'but can't top up your car with petrol/gas/diesel at home either'. The infra around EV charging needs to be much much better, I totally agree with this, but the idea that everyone will be able to charge their cars at home just isn't going to happen

Why would that be a valid rebuttal? From turning into a gas station to exiting, completely filling a gas tank takes, at most, 5 minutes and gas stations are everywhere. How long does charging to be able to travel the same distance take?

It's a rebuttal because it reduces local/regional pressure on fast chargers. If the average driver charges at home, fast chargers mostly only need to see the traffic of long distance drives. It's a move from strong centralization (gas stations are the only place to refuel a gas car) to much larger decentralization (in theory an EV can charge anywhere the electric grid touches and especially in the US the electric grid sure touches a large amount of the country, even "wilderness areas").

In terms of real world charging times added to travel the same distance, the raw numbers are generally for the same distance where you need one gas stop you need one charging stop. The charging stop is 15-30 minutes, which seems like a clear "loss" if you see gas stops as only 5 minutes. But gas refueling is a necessary serial task and you should not do anything else while waiting for your car to refuel. (technically, there are even laws that it is illegal to not watch your car the entire time), while charging is a parallel task and you can eat/hit the restrooms/do any number of other things while you wait. Experientially you may not notice any "lost time" in comparison of the two approaches depending on how you use refueling stops today. It sounds like a lot of lost time on paper, but you make up for it in parallel tasking.

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