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Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

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Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#51

Post by cestith »

giantg2 wrote: post #47
cestith wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regularly heat things in and near my house to 350º, 450º or even 600º F. It's called cooking. I'm pretty sure if I look at my water heater or clothes dryer the point heat source raising the temperature there is well over 200º F as well.

Yeah, and those aren't constantly on, some require outside venting and/or insulation. They also don't constitute the majority of a wall. There's a reason old timey kitchens were outdoors in the hot areas. All I'm saying is that there are other concerns with this battery vs a lithium battery, and that I feel the concerns are much lower with lithium.

I'm more concerned about the battery itself bursting into flame on my wall, frankly, than having a battery that needs some insulation and a metal enclosure between it and air-conditioned space. Lithium batteries can do that. They say this one can't. Either way, safety steps should be taken before putting a battery in a pile of oily rags or anything.

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#52

Post by Tagbert »

giantg2 wrote: post #31
noneeeed wrote: post #5

> The team says that this battery design would be best suited to the scale of a few dozen kilowatt-hours, like powering an individual home from renewable sources. I'm curious to know if this would also be suitable for grid-scale storage, it seems like an odd ommision in the article. The description certainly implies that this would be a good use but I wonder if there is an issue that I'm not seeing that would make th…

I think I'd have even bigger concerns about a battery hitting 230F as part of normal operation in my house. Maybe they can create a dual use as a preheater for the water heater or something.

That is not so different from the tank water heaters that most houses have. The water isn’t 230F but it is still a tank of very hot water sitting in your closet or basement. Insulation and isolation would be key.

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#53

Post by giantg2 »

klyrs wrote: post #48
giantg2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do you want that in a phone, in your pocket? Or any other electrical device? Or producing that heat in your house?

> Or producing that heat in your house? Yes please, today if you can deliver. A combination battery / heater / heat pump sounds amazing .

Only if the climate is cold enough to need it in the summer, or a mechanism to avoid the heat in the summer. And of course, if it's more efficient than other sources, like heat pumps.

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#54

Post by Tagbert »

jhoechtl wrote: post #14

Hear hear, the next breakthrough like the last 20 ones we had in the last ten years. Though it's still Li-Ion, LiFePo and plain old Lead Acid in practice.

The Li-Ion battery that you have today is much better than the one you had 10 years ago. All battery tech has been improving year over year for a couple of decades now. We just don’t notice because the yearly change is not so large. New chemistries don’t come into play as often as it takes longer to work out the details and to make them ready for wide spread use.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/eternally-five-years...

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#55

Post by Tagbert »

giantg2 wrote: post #39
jessaustin wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal combustion engines regularly get that hot. It isn't hot enough to damage any commonly used metals.

But do you want that in a phone, in your pocket? Or any other electrical device? Or producing that heat in your house?

These would probably not be suitable for phones, but would be suitable for a local power bank for a house and probably also for a car. Where they might really find a place would be for grid scale power storage for solar and wind.

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#56

Post by giantg2 »

cestith wrote: post #51
giantg2 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and those aren't constantly on, some require outside venting and/or insulation. They also don't constitute the majority of a wall. There's a reason old timey kitchens were outdoors in the hot areas. All I'm saying is that there are other concerns with this battery vs a lithium battery, and that I feel the concerns are much lower with lithium.

I'm more concerned about the battery itself bursting into flame on my wall, frankly, than having a battery that needs some insulation and a metal enclosure between it and air-conditioned space. Lithium batteries can do that. They say this one can't. Either way, safety steps should be taken before putting a battery in a pile of oily rags or anything.

Eh, that's exceedingly rare. I wouldn't be surprised if defects in the mass manufacturing of the new battery produces rare fire hazards too. I assume the thermal expansion and contraction of the containment materials will lead to issues too (I've seen it in even cooler operation temps for other batteries). Lithium sulfur batteries are supposed to be fire safe too. I assume there are other options out there as well, stuff with thousands of cycles vs hundreds.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out over the next decade, if it becomes commercially available at all.

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#57

Post by Tagbert »

giantg2 wrote: post #47
cestith wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regularly heat things in and near my house to 350º, 450º or even 600º F. It's called cooking. I'm pretty sure if I look at my water heater or clothes dryer the point heat source raising the temperature there is well over 200º F as well.

Yeah, and those aren't constantly on, some require outside venting and/or insulation. They also don't constitute the majority of a wall. There's a reason old timey kitchens were outdoors in the hot areas. All I'm saying is that there are other concerns with this battery vs a lithium battery, and that I feel the concerns are much lower with lithium.

You might have a tank water heater in your home that holds a large quantity of very hot water 24/7. Not quite to this level but in the same scale. That water heater is insulated and doesn’t prove a problem due to heat.

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#58

Post by giantg2 »

Tagbert wrote: post #55
giantg2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do you want that in a phone, in your pocket? Or any other electrical device? Or producing that heat in your house?

These would probably not be suitable for phones, but would be suitable for a local power bank for a house and probably also for a car. Where they might really find a place would be for grid scale power storage for solar and wind.

Pretty sure the article said there are better options for grid storage.

I doubt this would be a good candidate for vehicles due to the minimum operating temperature. Certainly vehicle design would have to change to accommodate the different pattern configuration with all the required insulation.

Houses make the most sense, but not for more than emergency power given the battery life is hundreds of cycles and not thousands. Come to think of it, the need to keep it at the minimum operating temperature makes it a poor choice for emergency power too.

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#59

Post by comboy »

giantg2 wrote: post #32
comboy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always been a bit uncomfortable about the idea of a large li-ion battery pack in my house So am I, but I think we're not different from people who are afraid of using planes. Yes, it's really bad when it happens, it just doesn't happen all that often and when it does it ends up in the news. Just like cars are more dangerous than planes even when you have li-ion battery it probably has very low impact on total…

I guess it depends on how hard it is to move. At least when GM tells people not to park their Bolt inside or near flammable stuff, they can move it. I image it would be difficult to do that with a battery pack whether connected to the wall or not.

You could always mount it on wheels, which would be way way easier than moving a car that's on fire (you can even keep big wire cutters nearby)

If fire hazard is what's stopping people I guess one could also build a fire-resistant brick cage around it (presumably just a shelf on top should be enough? so that it still can stay cool during normal operation)

Re: Battery made of aluminum, sulfur and salt proves fast, safe and low-cost

#60

Post by giantg2 »

Tagbert wrote: post #57
giantg2 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and those aren't constantly on, some require outside venting and/or insulation. They also don't constitute the majority of a wall. There's a reason old timey kitchens were outdoors in the hot areas. All I'm saying is that there are other concerns with this battery vs a lithium battery, and that I feel the concerns are much lower with lithium.

You might have a tank water heater in your home that holds a large quantity of very hot water 24/7. Not quite to this level but in the same scale. That water heater is insulated and doesn’t prove a problem due to heat.

Eventually you'll heat soak the insulation. With a waterheater, you have new water moving in as you use the previously heated on. The loss may be minimal, but still an efficiency drain half the year. Either way, you to pay for the housing and insulation. Then pay for a replacement battery every year or two.
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