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The culture of rejection in computer science publications

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Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#51

Post by Swizec »

krinchan wrote: post #39

The academic system is completely broken for Computer Science, and I don't really see a way to fix it. The economic realities of the field just make it too risky to allow an exceptionally gifted individual to remain out in the open publishing research that could potentially destroy your business model. Justifying these low acceptance rates as somehow prestigious is really just creating even more perverse incentives t…

> If you're smart enough to rise, you'll get an offer from the private sector you simply cannot refuse

The average graduation time for my comp sci undergrad in the mid 2000’s in Slovenia was 7.5 years. Because most people got jobs and forgot to graduate.

Personally I dropped out when schoolwork started getting in the way of freelancing for US companies. I remember a moment when my professor said “You know if you don’t get these grades up, you’ll have a hard time finding a job” and I thought “But I already have a job … sitting here talking to you is costing me billable hours”

Don’t get me wrong, I loved studying comp sci and learned a lot. Even use that knowledge regularly. Just didn’t get the paper.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#52

Post by Test0129 »

eatbitseveryday wrote: post #9

This is a reason I gave up doing systems research. It’s full of cliques and negativity. It became a process whereby we were even trained to accept this rejection frequency as normal and to expect retrying for years. You keep submitting a paper and revising it for months even while working on the next idea (can’t just sit around fixing a paper, PhD work must always continue). Rejections also directly impact a student’…

I left my PhD in computational geometry for similar reasons. I was told flat out by my advisor that the chances of me getting a paper accepted in even a middling journal were low. Not normally low (as in tough review), but so low because the entire field is dominated by a handful of very high profile researchers and mathematicians that essentially gate keep knowledge on it.

It was also necessary to publish some papers to even get my PhD.

Academia is dead. My biggest most important realization about learning in the last decade is that my concept of the academic was backwards. They aren't free thinking at all. It's drama all the way down.

I now havent touched really anything in CS research because this experience completely killed my love for the field, and advanced learning in general.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#53

Post by qzx_pierri »

parasubvert wrote: post #50
qzx_pierri wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But at what rate? And how long will they stay in the game without recognition before giving up? And do those numbers differ based on your color or where you're from? If you provide that data, we can continue the conversation. However, the truths in my original post stand firm. STEM is an objective field. Sure, there may be issues with equality of opportunity, but that's outside the scope of my argument. Equality of…

I think this is naive and a classic example of a poor argument, as your statements are unfalsifiable. They’re expressions of faith in the system and in individuals outside of time and circumstance. From my perspective, we have seen a lot of evidence that STEM is far from an objective field, and has culturally excluded a lot of talent. I see little evidence that this sort of talent magically, consistently, will fight…

I'm a black man who grew up in the projects in a single parent household. Through willpower and dedication, I made a way. I made a way because skin color doesn't matter when you have your CCNA at 14, or when you maintain a Gentoo install at 16, and have a OpenBSD router in your home built from old computer parts found in thrift stores. Mind you, these aren't even impressive achievements, but they were above average for my age group at the time.

> STEM is far from an objective field

I had every excuse to believe that, but I didn't. I'm definitely biased because I trusted the system and it worked. Most industries can be exclusive, but STEM is not one of them. Raw talent seems to be rare, so any talent is accepted.

> and has culturally excluded a lot of talent

You use 'culture' as a point of argument, which is extremely vague, yet you accuse me of presenting a poor argument due to unfalsifiable statements? I respect your point of view, but you have to be fair.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#54

Post by xor99 »

malfist wrote: post #33
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #17

Add upvotes/downvotes to preprint servers. Weight voting power by the user’s subfield, dynamically determined by who’s upvoting them, PageRank style (so a scientist who’s mostly upvoted by others working in numerical linear algebra would have a lot of voting power on a preprint describing a novel matrix factorization scheme, and very little voting power on a preprint describing a novel thread scheduling algorithm). T…

Do we really need to turn publishing into reddit?

Yeah, why not. It's already like/comment/subscribe model via publishing online. This would add a dislike button and you could have it so it costs karma etc. Would be preferable imo.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#55

Post by xor99 »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #17

Add upvotes/downvotes to preprint servers. Weight voting power by the user’s subfield, dynamically determined by who’s upvoting them, PageRank style (so a scientist who’s mostly upvoted by others working in numerical linear algebra would have a lot of voting power on a preprint describing a novel matrix factorization scheme, and very little voting power on a preprint describing a novel thread scheduling algorithm). T…

Anything like this is worth trying. Enhancing the reliability of peer-to-peer peer review on preprint servers so they become the de facto publishing base would be ideal. Think how many younger students could start publishing at undergrad and earlier.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#56

Post by qzx_pierri »

mikkergp wrote: post #23
qzx_pierri wrote: post #19

It doesn't matter what color you are. It doesn't matter where you're from. If you create something like what Dijkstra created back in 56' (undeniable innovation), then no door will remain shut. That's the beauty of Math, CompSci, or STEM as a whole. Not to be too blunt, but I'd rather we keep this soft, "everyone should be accepted" nonsense out of CompSci. The cream will rise to the top. Anyone complaining just need…

> If you create something like what Dijkstra created back in 56' (undeniable innovation), then no door will remain shut. That's the beauty of Math, CompSci, or STEM as a whole. Don’t get me wrong, this seems like a nice idea, I’d love to live in this world, but hasn’t it been disproven time and again throughout history? This board itself is flooded with engineers with great ideas being dismissed because of “realities…

> This board itself is flooded with engineers with great ideas being dismissed because of “realities of the business” or “changing priorities”, much less “political realities” etc

Your argument would be rock solid if those great ideas were only applicable/useful in huge bureaucratic organizations (which is the type of environment where bullshit ideas are given more attention than truly innovative and impactful ideas). We've all probably been there before, and I get your point 100%.

However, the next step would be to go where your ideas can be heard. And if the idea is good enough, people will listen. Shouting into an org chart 10 miles deep to narcissistic C level executives has always seemed like a waste of time. So I don't disagree with you, but if you aren't being heard, speak to someone who will listen.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#57

Post by magpi3 »

Academia as a whole is such an interesting place. I value it highly because I value learning. I love school, I loved the conversations and deep dives into interesting waters that nourished me in both college and graduate school, and I loved the opportunity to be fully immersed, without needing to get a job, in an atmosphere of learning.

But the rest of it? The petty hierarchies, the papers born of countless hours of hard work by extremely talented people that few people will ever read, the wage labor of adjuncts, the elitism, the comfortable cowardice of tenure - that all should be burned in fire.

I once read a book - I wish I could remember its name - that noted that even though we live in a democratic republic fueled by at least somewhat meritocratic capitalism, institutions from the feudal era still exist, the most notable being the church and the university. That was eye opening when I read it, and to this day it has jaded my view of academia and the people who tether themselves to it. All of those noble, high minded academics, fighting for their place in a feudal structure that they don't dare challenge. I know I sound a bit like an asshole when I write this, but: I can't truly look up to anyone who would resign themselves to a structure like that.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#58

Post by xor99 »

wanderingmind wrote: post #4

I think we are not far off from virtual conferences where most sessions are presented by DallE generated presenters, speaking with wavenet generated audios in turn are presenting GPT generated papers.

haha oke I didn't think about this as a possibility.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#59

Post by leoc »

krinchan wrote: post #39

The academic system is completely broken for Computer Science, and I don't really see a way to fix it. The economic realities of the field just make it too risky to allow an exceptionally gifted individual to remain out in the open publishing research that could potentially destroy your business model. Justifying these low acceptance rates as somehow prestigious is really just creating even more perverse incentives t…

> The economic realities of the field just make it too risky to allow an exceptionally gifted individual to remain out in the open publishing research that could potentially destroy your business model.

This seems a bit of a stretch, doesn’t it? It seems that you don’t have to suppress CS research to prevent it from having an impact, you can usually just politely ignore it after it has been published.

Re: The culture of rejection in computer science publications

#60

Post by moab »

logisticseh wrote: post #41
krinchan wrote: post #39

The academic system is completely broken for Computer Science, and I don't really see a way to fix it. The economic realities of the field just make it too risky to allow an exceptionally gifted individual to remain out in the open publishing research that could potentially destroy your business model. Justifying these low acceptance rates as somehow prestigious is really just creating even more perverse incentives t…

> The "cream" rising to the top is often less genius and more politically savvy with the right connections on the PC. I'm generally nauseated when I interact with American CS academics. Every time I attend a conference, PC, or NSF panel, I am so glad I chose industry. It's like IRL twitter. (Europe seems to be better for some reason.) > If you're smart enough to rise, you'll get an offer from the private sector you s…

Should faculty be paid more? Absolutely. Should Ph.D. students be paid more? Absolutely!! But the blanket statement you make in (1) is wrong and strikes me as awfully close to the extreme left-wing and right-wing mindsets of "the system is fucked up beyond repair, all that remains to be done is to tear it down". The reality is more nuanced than this, and the picture you paint of industry is hardly that rosy, even at silver-spoon companies that invest heavily in R&D.
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