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Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

nytimes.com

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Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#61

Post by chowells »

efnx wrote: post #29
mschuster91 wrote: post #3

The problem at the core is not spyware and "room checks", they are just a symptom - the question rather is how exams are designed and why schools and universities go to such drastic lengths to prevent cheating. Most tests are essentially nothing more than tests for the ability of rote memorization - they don't (really) check if the students actually understood the material and are able to apply it to new situations (…

I think I agree and I can't help but think that we (as a society) have our priorities backwards. Who do these tests protect? Do they bolster the student? If so, why would they want to cheat? Is it because the information isn't relevant to their future and only the letter grade is? If a student cheats and then never encounters the natural consequences (like getting the same subject matter wrong on the job) - what was…

The point of tests in higher education is for the student to get an assessment of where they are. The whole design kind of assumes that students want to learn, not just get a piece of paper.

But that's the entirety of the higher education experience. It's all about presenting opportunities to learn and grow. People who treat it as mere credentialism are missing about 99% of the point. And yes, that includes a lot of faculty, students, and people pressuring students (to go either direction, really.)

I don't see a problem with tests. I see a problem with people treating degrees as some sort of magic totem.

Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#62

Post by [deleted] »

IshKebab wrote: post #22
p1necone wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Design better tests. If you can "cheat" on a test by just googling things/looking at notes then the test isn't testing anything but rote memorization anyway.

Ok how do you design a test that's so good I can't just pay someone else to take it for me?

[deleted]

Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#63

Post by NotOscarWilde »

tpetry wrote: post #41
p1necone wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Design better tests. If you can "cheat" on a test by just googling things/looking at notes then the test isn't testing anything but rote memorization anyway.

One of the bests I had written in university allowed you to bring every non-digital material you want to have. All slides? The books? The former exercises? No problem! The test was designed to be built on 2 primitives: 1. If you need to lookup stuff in your waste of material you won‘t be able to finish everything. The time constraint was very hard. 2. It was not just repeating former things, you had to have understoo…

> If you need to lookup stuff in your waste of material you won‘t be able to finish everything. The time constraint was very hard.

Did you enjoy this exam? I am asking as I had a very similar experience in my undergrad:

Our university allowed some basic courses to be studied at different departments, if they were equivalent. This means that there was a CS Major Algebra 1, but also Math Major Algebra 1, and you can take either.

I took the Math Major Algebra 1, being a CS student, and I have passed everything up to the final exam, where I learned that the exam is literally what you describe. All the proofs and arguments needed follow from basic principles (as things in Algebra 1 tend to do), but there is a lot of questions and the time limit is strict.

Thus, you have no time to actually do any deliberate thinking, you have to memorize and understand the basics so well that you can develop the arguments essentially in real time.

(And it was not an open book exam, even, but as you describe, it would not have helped you too much.)

I hated that exam. I never took it out of principle, instead just quitting the course and doing it with a great grade a year later, in CS. I still dislike the idea of forcing knowledge acquisition through strict time limits. What if somebody is smart but has a slow start due to stress? Ugh.

Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#64

Post by andrewjl »

What is the value of standardized tests in todays society? They measure only one thing: how well one can perform on an arbitrary test. They have no meaningful predictive value. Verdicts like this one make them a thing of the past? Good riddance.

Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#65

Post by detaro »

janekm wrote: post #45
PeterStuer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just googling . It's communicating with others. In a no checks environment you can have an a la carte team of paid consultants and helpfull friends solving the test with you.

and... where's the problem? That's exactly the kind of group problem-solving that is actually required in the real world.

that if I hire someone for skills with X, I dont want their skill to be "I can ask people with skills with X what to write".

Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#66

Post by KingOfCoders »

PeterStuer wrote: post #43
KingOfCoders wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A math professor (granted easier with math) at university always said, you can bring anything you want to the exam, if you can answer it with help he made a mistake designing the test. I see the same when I interview people online and I hear them frantically click their keyboard - but no help, I know before what Google returns.

Did any student show up with a 5G tablet and an earpiece?

No but there were some were I suspected someone was listening in and answering questions.

Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#67

Post by mschuster91 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #53
mschuster91 wrote: post #3

The problem at the core is not spyware and "room checks", they are just a symptom - the question rather is how exams are designed and why schools and universities go to such drastic lengths to prevent cheating. Most tests are essentially nothing more than tests for the ability of rote memorization - they don't (really) check if the students actually understood the material and are able to apply it to new situations (…

are any of these criticims backed by evidence? Rote memorization is one of the, if not the most important backbone of excellence in any discipline. Pianists play scales, chess players memorize and repeat, athletes do the same, virtually any excellent programmer I've met shares one trait, they program a lot . frontal teaching to large audiences isn't dehumanizing, it's simply effective reflected empirically by the lar…

> Pianists play scales, chess players memorize and repeat, athletes do the same, virtually any excellent programmer I've met shares one trait, they program a lot.

They practice applying the knowledge.

> frontal teaching to large audiences isn't dehumanizing, it's simply effective reflected empirically by the large amounts of excellent graduates coming out of countries that focus heavily on that style of teaching.

LOL have you ever had the fortune of dealing with these "excellent graduates" in offshoring projects? As soon as you go one tiny step beyond what they were taught in "university" shit gets nasty. Applying abstract knowledge to a specific use case is what is important in IT, and those who never had to actually understand the topic fail miserably.

Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#68

Post by Hamuko »

astrobe_ wrote: post #58
DocTomoe wrote: post #18

As a mid-career engineer, I had to renew a professional certification during the Covid-19 times. That recertification was set up as a proctored online exam. After 15 minutes of removing random stuff from my desk, under my desk, on my walls, including but not limited to disassembling a wall-mounted TV set, as instructed by the proctor, I gave up. I rented an office at a co-working place that was sterile white. Then th…

I don't believe it can be "you can take the test remotely if you let us search the room first" (that judge put an end on this, so it cannot anymore at least in the US). It is impossible to prevent cheating in this context, no matter how hard you try. Their paranoia in your case was foolish. What they could do is letting people take written test in a lightly controlled environment (just a webcam with audio, no 360/sca…

>that judge put an end on this, so it cannot anymore at least in the US

That was a public school, so the impact is probably scoped.

Re: Remote scan of student’s room before test violated his privacy, judge rules

#70

Post by Broken_Hippo »

sh4rks wrote: post #14
Claude_Shannon wrote: post #4

It is terrible, but what is the alternative to prevent cheating? I had quite a few on-line exams by now and I've seen very creative attempts at cheating so far.

The best way to prevent cheating in an online test is to set a strict time limit. That way its harder for them to look up the answers on Google etc. The problem then is that a student may experience technical difficulties out of their control. For cases like that, students should be able to appeal for extra time.

They already do this with some tests, both online and in person. If it isn't generous enough, it generally harms folks that are being careful with answers while cheaters can cheat. The cheaters just have to be prepared.
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