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Mainnet Merge Announcement

blog.ethereum.org

591–600 of 609 posts

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, most cryptocurrency is nonsense sci-fi bullshit. I hesitate to even call it money. Ok, let me try ELI5ing it. Let's say we have an economy where, in order to determine who owns what, people literally just make and publish a list of who owns what. Everyone trusts the lists. But what if someone decide to change the list so that it says they own someone else's stuff? Proof of Stake says that if someone wants…

> Let's say we have an economy where, in order to determine who owns what, people literally just make and publish a list of who owns what. As an interesting aside, this is essentially how the economy of the Yap islands in Micronesia worked until the 20th century, with large stones from another island changing 'ownership', while being left in place (because it was too hard to move them)[1]. Except it was an oral histo…

Oral history seems particularly robust in its ability to maintain consistency over time. There is an inherent weakness to publishing where authorship is corruptible and short circuits the durability of time spread across regions that maintain a consistent oral history.

It reminds me of the technique to remembering a book where you read one word at a time and repeat it out loud, repeating each segment + 1 in a loop. It’s quite trivial to remember every single word when doing that.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try to describe how you have considered and rejected other possible explanations for the observed phenomena. Sure. I use abductive logic/reasoning to connect different data points (this could be a study, social trend, major event, etc) and reason out how/why that outcome might be possible (and whether or not there are any gaps/inconsistencies in that reasoning). For example, our current economic situation: massive,…

> massive, unpayable federal debt, rising inflation, and a serious constriction of the middle class I've been hearing people say all this since the 1970's. What's different now? > If you factor in rising crime rates, well, what do people do when they're desperate for basic needs? Yep, crime. Crime rates are not rising, they are low compared to the peak in the early 1990's. Whomever is telling you that is lying to you…

> I've been hearing people say all this since the 1970's. What's different now?

Right, because the problem accelerated when we unpinned from the gold standard. What's different is that the current balance is upwards of 31T dollars. Purchasing power of the U.S. dollar is down significantly from the 70s.

> Crime rates are not rising, they are low compared to the peak in the early 1990's.

They were. And then all of a sudden, they're on the rise again [1]. What might have caused that? Forcing people to stay in their homes, shutter their businesses (leading to employees being laid off), and lose their livelihoods.

[1] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/myth... (see: "Socioeco­nomic Instabil­ity and Disrup­tions to Community Life")

> You are unable to consider other possible explanations.

I'm not unable, there are just none that make as much sense. I can throw the same back at you and say that you're unable to consider that government is causing these problems (at the root, meaning direct or indirect). Can you tell me why they're not?

> Your reasoning begins and ends with the premise that the problem can only be government.

Did I say only? No, but in that specific example, it's easily ID'd as a root issue. That's the point of that type of reasoning. I have a hypothesis, does the logic supporting that hypothesis track all the way from the root to the effect and back. If so, I trust it (not in an absolute sense, but enough that I can quickly identify other outcomes as being descendant from that). I can certainly find other fringe causes, but if I had to pick out "the one," it'd be the government, nearly every single time.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, now that I've obliterated the 51% attack idea, shall we move on to 66% attack? It doesn't matter if it's a 90% attack. The minority miners are constantly receiving and using the majority's blocks. So it is not 66% vs. 33%, or 90% vs. 10%; it is 60% vs. 100% and 90% vs. 100%. All it takes is for the less-restrictive minority to mine two blocks in a row and they've permanently outpaced the majority's more restricti…

They are not block, they are chained blocks. Oversimplifiying, each block has 3 parts: 1) The hash of the old block. 2) The new transactions. 3) A number that must be bruteforced until you get a hash of all the block with a lot of zeros. If you try to copy one block in the other chain/fork, then the hash of the previos block is invalid. If you change just that part of the block, you must bruteforce a new number until…

I want to thank everyone who engaged with me instead of downvoting me.

Okay, I think I see now where I was separately wrong and partially wrong in the previous comments. When I said there's a huge monetary upside to a 51% attack, that's wrong. There's not really any upside to speak of, especially considering the huge amount of computing resources you would need to do it.

So it's not surprising it hasn't been tried yet, and that's not a proof that it's a canard as I said before (but it's not a proof of the opposite, either). Absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. So I'll concede and leave that point alone. I was wrong.

---

Now, when I said that the 49% can still use the 51%'s blocks, that's not entirely correct. It's correct only until the blockchain splits, then it's not correct. So my position wasn't entirely correct, but it still has value to this discussion. Let me illustrate with a randomly-generated timeline.

Let's make it easy and say 66% are censoring miners, and 33% are non-censoring miners.

We haven't discussed this yet, but let's also assume that the exchanges and non-mining users reflect this proportion. This is an unfounded assumption. But I'm steelmanning.

The 33% are in miner pool 1, and the 66% are in miner pool 2 and 3. The dots represent 5-minute intervals. Just like in Bitcoin, a block is mined roughly once every 20 minutes. Observe the moment at "X".

  ..3..........2...X1.3......1...1..........2......2..
At this point, the blockchain looks like this.

  100% 3--2
You might ask, "Why is it not forked at this point? Miner pools 3 and 2 are the malicious actors, and they had two blocks in a row." Because 1 has no reason to fork. All previous blocks are valid according to Miner pool 1.

Now, observe the point at X:

  ..3..........2....1X3......1...1.......X..2......2..
At this point, the blockchain has forked. It looks like this.

  66%  3--2
  33%  3--2--1
Notice, 33% has the longer chain, but the 66% do not accept the 33%'s block because it contains censored transactions, so a re-org does not occur. This situation will continue as long as the 33% chain is equal to or longer than the 66%, which could be a while.

But how can that be possible if the 66% has more hashpower?

Observe the point at X:

  ..3..........2....1.3X.....1...1..........2......2..
Chains:

  66%  3--2--3
  33%  3--2--1
They are equal. No re-org happens.

One should question at this point what's going on in the mempool here? One can assume the 66% censoring miners are not transmitting the censored transactions to the mempool. But how many censored transactions are we talking about? How much of a fee is each side collecting? Is this still in the coinbase reward era or after? Are the 33% smart enough to route around the 66%? Or punish them by kicking them off the mempool? Not sure. All of these variables can mitigate this attack. But I will not explore that now.

Although there are now two rival chains, for simplicity's sake, lets just assume the same timeline holds, and remove each of the two side's blocks from the other's chain starting from at the time of the fork.

  66% ..3..........2....1.3.....................2......2..
  33% ..3..........2....1........1...1....................
Now, observe the point at X:

  66% ..3..........2....1.3.....................2......2.X
  33% ..3..........2....1........1...1...................X
Chains:

  66%  3--2--3--2--2
  33%  3--2--1--1--1
3 hours later, the 66% still have not overtaken the 33%.

One should wonder even more, what is going on in the mempool and ~$250B Bitcoin economy during this time?

In this example, only two blocks by the 33% are mined consecutively. What about 3 or 4? Could it be days before the 66% overtakes the 33%? I think it's possible.

On the other hand, the mining of consecutive blocks by the 66% does not create a contention between the two sides. So all miners are unified until the 33% gain an advantage. This is my point.

From the POV of the censored Bitcoin transactions, the 66% will succeed in censoring them until the issue is resolved. But I don't think you can say that the 66% have control of the network at this point. They've only succeeded in disrupting the network until more non-censoring miners come online, or something else happens.

Consider also that the attacker has to either possess 66% of all computing power devoted to Bitcoin in the known universe OR an incentive more attractive than the BTC block incentive for the operators of 66% of miners. Even for 51%, that's an impressive achievement.

It's a very interesting scenario but I still say it does not constitute a credible threat to Bitcoin. More of a thought experiment.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#594
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I predict that many of these GPUs will continue to mine just on different chains.

The rewards on other chains aren't enough to sustain all the GPUs.

GPU mining was a thing long before the recent high ETH valuations

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a not well off person with a gaming computer with power included in my rent, I don’t have 50,000$. Shrinking the number of people with the financial means to contribute doesn’t seem like it’s going to result in decentralization.

Right but you can't afford to buy ASICs either so from your point of view the situation hasn't really changed. The chance of you ever being able to mine an ETH block with your gaming PC is negligable.

I’ve made .2 eth in under a year.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> massive, unpayable federal debt, rising inflation, and a serious constriction of the middle class I've been hearing people say all this since the 1970's. What's different now? > If you factor in rising crime rates, well, what do people do when they're desperate for basic needs? Yep, crime. Crime rates are not rising, they are low compared to the peak in the early 1990's. Whomever is telling you that is lying to you…

> I've been hearing people say all this since the 1970's. What's different now? Right, because the problem accelerated when we unpinned from the gold standard. What's different is that the current balance is upwards of 31T dollars. Purchasing power of the U.S. dollar is down significantly from the 70s. > Crime rates are not rising, they are low compared to the peak in the early 1990's. They were. And then all of a su…

[1] Thank you for sharing that interesting article!

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A government spending billions of taxpayer dollars on an attack which can be reversed in an afternoon with a new software update is more likely to be an existential threat to that government than to Ethereum. The sort of software update I'm imagining is one which just zeroes the holdings of the government wallet(s), and continues the chain from just before they launched their attack.

I think you lost the context of the thread. I'm not suggesting they will spend billions on crypto. I'm suggesting they will use their regulatory teeth to compel USA companies that have already staked billions worth of their customers' ETH to comply with the sanctions on Tornado Cash addresses, consequences/slashing be damned. OFAC has lawyers on payroll, so this would literally be free for them.

> I'm suggesting they will use their regulatory teeth to compel USA companies...

If there's one group that the government care more about the finances of than taxpayers, it's companies. Destroying the wealth of these companies in their jurisdiction is an attack that can only be performed once, and provides no long term benefit, except for people outside their jurisdiction.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#598
post #129

I have to say I'm very surprised, and I'm curious to see how this plays out. PoW must die, but I have a hard time seeing how this won't lock up a ton of currency and create its own plutocracy. Of course I suppose an argument could be made that a "least privilege plutocracy" with aligned interests is not as bad as many alternatives.

Why a surprise? Why very surprised?

There has been a sustained effort over the last 2+ years to make this happen:

- thousands of commits in many public Git repositories, mostly on GitHub

- cross-team calls (for a variety of teams external to the Ethereum Foundation, though having received grants from the same) with recordings, transcripts, and minutes that are accessible to the public

- a series of testnet "merges" leading up to the OP that stretch back over recent months

I'm asking a genuine question. Yes, I realize it's taken time to make it happen and far longer than originally estimated, but it's not like the announcement popped out of nowhere.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#599
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evaluated in the same way that “does this address have enough to send to this much to this other address” is evaluated? If it isn’t valid, then a block containing it isn’t valid, and this is a thing which any client can automatically check. What happens if you try to send trillions of invalid transactions in any sensible chain?

Normally there's a fee to try and send such things to prevent such behavior. I haven't seen anything suggesting thats the case for slasher reports. The thing here is that the validators don't need to be honest when responding to a slasher report.

Do you mean by claiming that the block containing it is invalid when it is valid, or visa versa? Or something else?

Also, how can there be a fee to trying to send an invalid transaction? Such a fee would have to be sent as part of a transaction, yes? Isn’t it just that someone spamming the network gets dropped from the gossip protocol stuff?

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#600
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. That's very inaccurate. If only the ETH foundation is allowed to slash, then it's just a centralized system with extra steps. Because only the ETH foundation is allowed to decide what is bad behavior. It is not the case that only the ETH foundation can slash, which was the crux of my original question. The fundamental misunderstanding people seem to be having is that slashers show objective proof of bad events.…

I agree with your 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentences, but not with your 1st and 2nd. Assuming a large number of independent validators, the Nash equilibrium is close to "there is no equivocation, hence no slashable evidence, hence no incentive to run a slasher node". (Remember that Nash equilibrium implicitly assumes that agents are not allowed to cooperate with each other). Suppose some fraction of the validators are devia…

I don't really agree but sure, however this counterpoint retracts the original premise, that the slashers are centralized. Something can be done with a small number of people and still be decentralized.
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