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“We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

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Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#271

Post by sam-s »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #57
the_lonely_road wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false equivalence though and not what the alternative option is here. The government was killing its enemies 100 years before the word digital was invented and will continue to do so as long as government exist. They will use every technology invented in the pursuit of doing so. Blaming metadata signature based approaches is no different than blaming their use of satellites, metallurgy, hell the wheel is a b…

In 2010, an American citizen was killed in a drone strike by the US military, without a trial or any attempt to make an arrest. This was the first time in history that a US civilian was killed by the US military. Before 2010, we were doing just fine without executing citizens on suspect legal grounds. Edit: Edited to state that this was not fire of combatants in a combat zone.

American civilians are being murdered by the police all the time - with complete impunity.

This will continue until (1) the courts eliminate Qualified Immunity and (2) police unions have to carry liability insurance for all its members.

It is easy to get outraged at the military, but the police is way more harmful here.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#272

Post by inglor_cz »

ch4s3 wrote: post #129
the_lonely_road wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false equivalence though and not what the alternative option is here. The government was killing its enemies 100 years before the word digital was invented and will continue to do so as long as government exist. They will use every technology invented in the pursuit of doing so. Blaming metadata signature based approaches is no different than blaming their use of satellites, metallurgy, hell the wheel is a b…

The US government was not murdering anonymous strangers using a shadowy intelligence agency with no oversight 100 years ago. Army SigInt was only founded in 1917, and prior the US didn't formally employ any spies, and certainly didn't carry out assassinations.

Other governments possibly did, though probably in a way less organized than today.

In 1896, under circumstances not entirely clear, Sun was caught and detained for 13 days by the Chinese legation in London. It appears likely that Sun ran into a fellow Cantonese who worked for the legation and was found out and seized while visiting him under an alias. The legation planned to ship Sun back to China, but, before this could be done, Sun had converted a British employee at the legation to his side and got word through to James Cantlie, former dean of Hong Kong College of Medicine. The British Foreign Office intervened, and Sun was released from his captivity. The incident engendered great publicity and gave Sun’s career a powerful boost.

From the biography of Sun Yat Sen. They probably wanted to execute him in China for plotting against the throne.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Sun-Yat-sen

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#273

Post by Ekaros »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #224
rhacker wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why this isn't upvoted beyond anything here. For them to even admit they've killed people based on metadata means they could kill you for your uncle's friend's mom being a terrorist.

Since the Obama administration, any male over the age of 16 we kill anywhere is retroactively considered a legitimate target regardless of any "proof" of their guilt. Obviously this is a horrific policy that is a fig leaf to cover up for mass murder. Everyone involved in these murders going back a decade should be on trial for their crimes. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/under-o...

So how much does this lower the civilian death count of 9/11. As reasonably we should be able to apply same standard to those combatants. And treat both genders equally in case of USA. Upper limit could be let's say how old Biden is now.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#274

Post by trasz »

lupire wrote: post #228
monocasa wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What special steps should they take because he is an American citizen? The due process afforded in the constitution. With, you know, trials and juries and such. > A little different, but imagine if an American decided to go fight for Germany during WWII. Should he receive any special consideration above what native-born German soldiers got, before Americans start shooting towards him? I would say that an operation…

At the time of the assassination order, he had been out of the US for over 6 years, and was a public leader in a war against the US that had already killed thousands of American civilians . He was convicted and ordered to "capture dead or alive" by a Yemeni court. Should the US conducted the formality of convicting him of treason in absentia? Sure. None of this remotely excuses killing his children.

Many American officials were public leaders in war that already have killed about a million. Would it be ok for foreign governments to liquidate those people, or should they conduct the formality of convincing them first?

Once again - you’re assuming US was the good guys there. Which is quite an absurd assumption if you look at the numbers instead of propaganda.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#275

Post by ch4s3 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #272
ch4s3 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government was not murdering anonymous strangers using a shadowy intelligence agency with no oversight 100 years ago. Army SigInt was only founded in 1917, and prior the US didn't formally employ any spies, and certainly didn't carry out assassinations.

Other governments possibly did, though probably in a way less organized than today. In 1896, under circumstances not entirely clear, Sun was caught and detained for 13 days by the Chinese legation in London. It appears likely that Sun ran into a fellow Cantonese who worked for the legation and was found out and seized while visiting him under an alias. The legation planned to ship Sun back to China, but, before this…

Sure, but we are talking about the US specifically here.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#276

Post by the_optimist »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #130
the_optimist wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You invented 'retroactive.' I suppose you are blasé about this because it applies to someone of an opposing political party.

Is there any actual evidence that he declassified all of that material while in office? Did he even tell anybody? No? Well, then, any such claims are necessarily retroactive, or else they're invalid from the get-go. Which do you prefer?

Turns out the raid was conducted with respect to the words “marked classified,” and in response to a subpoena. To be clear, “marked classified” documents remain so, because the president doesn’t personally operate the declassification stamp, nor is there any formal process for declass if one holds the authority. Even this DoJ doesn’t want to engage such an obviously specious argument about classification status.
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