Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection • Hacker News Board

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#21

Post by kiba » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:02 PM UTC

kodah wrote: post #10

JKCalhoun wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too would like the car lifestyle ... from 1950. Sadly, we have created a monster. I suspect many Americans now don't even know what a community without cars would look like, that it could even work at all.

The average American likely doesn't want a life without cars. That seems to be an HN obsession seemingly (my perception) fueled by people who have lived and stayed in very dense urban areas. Creating larger spaces that aren't made for cars is great, but people will still need long-range individual transportation.

Last time I check, these 'dense' urban area aren't exactly great for anybody but cars.

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#22

Post by dont__panic » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:03 PM UTC

I've seen so much anti-car, pro-walkability, pro-transit, pro-bikeability sentiment online recently.

I really hope this is proof of the younger generations -- Millenials, Zoomers, and younger folks even -- waking up to the idea that the USA in particular has become a toxic environment thanks to cars. WFH was a big wakeup call, I think -- once you step away from the commute for a year or two, trying to sit in traffic again seems insane. I guess it's a successful "unboiling of the frog," where we realized that car infratructure has been turned up for the last century to unbearable levels.

I hate cars. I don't want to use them on a daily basis. I'm cheap, and I don't want to own one, or maintain one. I try to do everything I can by biking or walking, or transit if those aren't feasible. It is nearly impossible in 95% of the USA.

Selfishly, I really want the USA to bring city centers back to livable levels by banning most cars and redesigning them for humans. Otherwise I'm absolutely going to end up moving to Europe eventually -- likely the Netherlands -- because driving a car is just so unpleasant for me. I'd rather not learn a whole new language and leave my family and friends so far behind, but especially since covid I've come to realize that driving makes me miserable, and I need other ways to get from my home into the world.

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#23

Post by kiba » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:03 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #13

JKCalhoun wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too would like the car lifestyle ... from 1950. Sadly, we have created a monster. I suspect many Americans now don't even know what a community without cars would look like, that it could even work at all.

I know a lot of Americans who are well-travelled and have seen world-class transit in Europe and Asia, and most of them still choose to live in suburbs. The average American wants to live in a detached house that they own. This does not lead to dense cities. It leads to sprawl, which is what we got because it’s what we want.

Our choices are limited by options available to us.

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#24

Post by crisdux » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

Sir_Son_Son wrote: post #11

twblalock wrote: post #6

Most Americans want it to be that way, and that’s why it is that way. Zoning laws didn’t push people into a car lifestyle. Americans created those zoning laws because they like the car lifestyle and want to perpetuate it. The same is true for suburban zoning in general. People have not been tricked into this: this is what they want.

How could we forget the time the American public bought up their street cars and retired them?

That being a major factor in the demise of streetcars is highly disputed. There was an interesting conversation about this on hn last month. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32166175

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#25

Post by refurb » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #13

JKCalhoun wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too would like the car lifestyle ... from 1950. Sadly, we have created a monster. I suspect many Americans now don't even know what a community without cars would look like, that it could even work at all.

I know a lot of Americans who are well-travelled and have seen world-class transit in Europe and Asia, and most of them still choose to live in suburbs. The average American wants to live in a detached house that they own. This does not lead to dense cities. It leads to sprawl, which is what we got because it’s what we want.

I spent time in Singapore where living in dense high rises and traveling on a very well run public transit system is commonplace.

Same thing. I found that people who could afford cars bought them for the convenience (despite the 100% import duty and $100,000 COE charge for 10 year permit).

And same with detached housing. It’s was pretty much the ideal for families. Constant complaints of noise in apartment buildings, crappy neighbors, limited space.

Don’t get me wrong, many people like the apartment living car-free. Mostly, young, childless people. But when kids came into the picture or even wealth increased and people got older, preferences changed.

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#26

Post by TylerE » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

kodah wrote: post #10

JKCalhoun wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too would like the car lifestyle ... from 1950. Sadly, we have created a monster. I suspect many Americans now don't even know what a community without cars would look like, that it could even work at all.

The average American likely doesn't want a life without cars. That seems to be an HN obsession seemingly (my perception) fueled by people who have lived and stayed in very dense urban areas. Creating larger spaces that aren't made for cars is great, but people will still need long-range individual transportation.

And are young enough not to being dealing with physical issues/disability.

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#27

Post by kodah » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

kiba wrote: post #21

kodah wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average American likely doesn't want a life without cars. That seems to be an HN obsession seemingly (my perception) fueled by people who have lived and stayed in very dense urban areas. Creating larger spaces that aren't made for cars is great, but people will still need long-range individual transportation.

Last time I check, these 'dense' urban area aren't exactly great for anybody but cars.

Correct. The car situation is worse there, which is why I think their theories are so whacky when postulated as "get rid of cars" because it fails to be relevant beyond those areas.

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#28

Post by Invictus0 » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

dont__panic wrote: post #22

I've seen so much anti-car, pro-walkability, pro-transit, pro-bikeability sentiment online recently. I really hope this is proof of the younger generations -- Millenials, Zoomers, and younger folks even -- waking up to the idea that the USA in particular has become a toxic environment thanks to cars. WFH was a big wakeup call, I think -- once you step away from the commute for a year or two, trying to sit in traffic…

I honestly think that most Americans have not traveled enough to realize there is a better way. Only 30% of Americans even have a passport.

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#29

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

hi41 wrote: post #16

Our homes are also designed in way that causes alienation from family members. Many rooms have TV and the seating is arranged in such a way that we can compulsively watch to dull our anxiety instead of having meaningful conversations with wife and kids. This is the default and without everyone’s okay in the family it’s hard to change this.

>Our homes are also designed in way that causes alienation from family members.

Have you been in a house from the 1800s or early 1900s? Walls and doors everywhere. Hell, there's a good chance the kitchen sink isn't even in the kitchen. People are much more readily in each others company (for better or worse) in newer houses with their big open spaces.

>Many rooms have TV and the seating is arranged in such a way that we can compulsively watch to dull our anxiety instead of having meaningful conversations with wife and kids.

Back in the "good old days" the kids would be doing some sort of labor (chores or otherwise) as their age and ability allowed and husband and wife would have spent more of their time doing the stuff needed to run the household. We spend far more time interacting with each other these days as a result of the sheer abundance of leisure time. Having daily leisure time with your SO, even if it's also screen time, is basically unheard of by 1920s standards of living.

Re: Too many Americans live in places built for cars – not for human connection

#30

Post by dont__panic » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #6

Most Americans want it to be that way, and that’s why it is that way. Zoning laws didn’t push people into a car lifestyle. Americans created those zoning laws because they like the car lifestyle and want to perpetuate it. The same is true for suburban zoning in general. People have not been tricked into this: this is what they want.

Most Americans don't have a choice.

Why are cars and phones giant these days? Is it because nobody wants smaller ones, or because perverse market incentives have distorted offerings in a chase for product growth?

Why is the USA unbearably car centric? Is it because nobody wants to get around any other way, or because perverse market incentives have distorted the world around us in a chase for GDP growth?

Some people like cars. But the price premium of the small number of walkable places in the US (and the fact that that kind of infrastructure is literally illegal to build today) implies that there is a significant portion of people who like walkable places.