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Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

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Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#201
post #43

Googler, opinions are my own. I don't work on chrome or anything related. Many companies put out free software to drive people towards their products, and Chrome with Google Search seems to be one of those. As many know, improving and maintaining Chrome is not free, and having Google Search being a default is one part of what helps pay for this work. Yes, this is Google, yes, this is likely a tiny drop in the bucket…

> Yes, this is Google, yes, this is likely a tiny drop in the bucket for them, but at the same time, it's taking away potential revenue from Google.

Good. Hopefully we will see anti-trust enforcement force Chrome and Android to not default to Google search either.

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#202
Changing the search engine of existing installs is quite questionable and it is worrying that this was released without a much bigger discussion involving not just the maintainers of the browser package going by their personal feelings. If I was a debian user I would be mad.

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#203

Changing the search engine of existing installs is quite questionable and it is worrying that this was released without a much bigger discussion involving not just the maintainers of the browser package going by their personal feelings. If I was a debian user I would be mad.

Debian being free of cost, I dont think you have a right to be mad about anything if you don't help with maintenance. Open source maintainers are not your employees.

Users can always switch back to Google if they so desire.

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> open-source the entire search index db and accompanying webserver software, making it easy for users to setup their own local instance of DDG which is actually auditable Easy to self-host? How large do you suppose the Bing index is, for example? Simply storing the index would be an immense undertaking beyond the reach of probably everyone who has ever self-hosted anything, ever. This ignores the compute required to…

Yet somehow search engines like Google and AskJeeves existed and worked alright 20+ years ago on hardware 1/1000th as powerful as it is today.

firstly Google was founded in 1998 that is 23 years ago.

Secondly from 2000 - 2018 the internet went form having ~17.000.000 unique domains to having ~1.600.000.000 unique domains. see: https://www.internetlivestats.com/total-number-of-websites/

The performance for desktop computers have actually not increased as much as you would think: https://www.karlrupp.net/2015/06/40-years-of-microprocessor-...

Your assumption is correct if you look at supercomputers, where the fastest in the world in 1999 could produce ~2.3 TFLOPS and in 2018 it could produce 122 PFLOPS which is around 5000 times the increase in FLOPS.

But i doubt most of the people you would want to go through this index has access to a super computer.

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite thing is when a government "solves" a market problem by incentivizing forcing a user to choose when most don't care It worked great for cookies in the EU. Really improved my browsing experience.

You prefer the alternative, whomever owns the platform wins? There is a spectrum between everyone votes on everything and yielding everything to our corporate overlords. For example there could be an "I don't care" button which picks one at random. Cookie banners despite their annoyance are educating people and motivating corps to minimize their PII usage.

In terms of human hours used, it's possibly one of the more expensive education programs ever mandated by a government. And I haven't seen any evidence that it's actually moving corps to minimize their PII usage, since they don't pay the cost in time of having to read the banners.

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#206
post #55

There was a posting on HN not long ago warning that DDG was run by spammers, and that the "privacy" focus is purely a marketing ploy. This should be predictable on the basis that it is a free service, making you the product, and somebody else , therefore, the customer. It is hard to know what else one can do to get useful search functionality. It has been a long time since Google dropped any emphasis on usefulness. A…

It would actually help if you would link to that HN posting so others can verify.

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps a ballot on first run, much like browsers should be in a well regulated market.

My favorite thing is when a government "solves" a market problem by incentivizing forcing a user to choose when most don't care It worked great for cookies in the EU. Really improved my browsing experience.

Seems like it's either covert surveillance (before the EU cookie thing), or manipulated consent surveillance.

I personally improved my browsing experience with the Consent-o-matic addon, which knows some of these cookie modals, and fills them for me according to my preset (which is to deny all cookies).

Also, people not caring should not be a baseline. People are ignorant about the vast majority of things going on, and yet they are much better off if those are taken care of by people who actually give a damn - as evidenced by a good deal of regulations that keep lead out of paint, antibiotics out of chicken, and so on.

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not supposed to totally trust DDG, but they are a better default search engine than Google if you care about privacy. - they are less likely to throw a captcha in your face if you connect over VPN - they have less surveillance infrastructure and run less code clientside than Google does - they are at least not explicitly tracking you - they have a lower number of secondary data-points from other services that…

Maybe DDG is good replacement for English users, but I wonder does debian developers considered is it fine for global users.

Of course they do, when the alternative is Google.

Do you want to try and argue that Google is a more private search engine than DDG outside of the US?

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in the worst case scenario you propose, where DuckDuckGo is deliberately lying and collecting more information than they claim and where those clickthrough requests are sending as much information as is possible for them to send, this is still exposing you to way less risk than Google Analytics. It is still, I would claim, objectively more private to use DuckDuckGo than Google even in a world where they are lyin…

I'm gonna throw you.com (i'm a co-founder) into that mix. We've been growing a lot and have a private mode that stores nothing at all. What audit would you suggest for us to prove that statement? It would be great to have a some independent party verify this.

> to prove that statement?

Cynically speaking, I am not sure that there is an audit you're going to be able to do that won't cost a ton of money that the people in this thread would trust as definitive "proof" of anything[0].

I think a big part of what I'm personally getting at with the comment above is that I'm not looking for perfect proof of anything; independent audits are great and I love to see them and I absolutely encourage them, but remember that the point of comparison here is Google/Bing. Take it with a grain of salt, and purely opinion me, but I think its fine for private search engines to offer the best proof of their claims that they can and to otherwise ignore people who demand perfection or nothing.

It's great to see more search engines in the space with a focus on privacy, and if you're able to pull off building your own indexes, that's also a pretty big win. I wish there was a more obvious path forward for your company to make money (I get nervous when companies say, "we'll figure out funding later", to me that comes across as a little bit of a time bomb). But in general, always good to see more private options for people available.

If I was in your position and I was looking for audits, I'd honestly be looking at the same sources that DuckDuckGo's founder talks about further up-thread, because that would at least allow me to say, "the same sources that claim DuckDuckGo is private have also said that we are private." But it's not my area of expertise, so maybe that's bad advice.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32586726

Re: Debian's Chromium changes default search engine to DDG

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flattering. Unfortunately my search engine is far away, both in terms of functionality and hardware capacity from being able to deal with that. Maybe some day, who knows, but not yet. Even if I'm destined to make the Linux of search engines, we're metaphorically living in 1992 or so. Would be funny though because it's both developed on a Debian workstation and hosted on a Debian server.

Hey, totally unrelated, but the way your status page is set up made me think your site was down for months (I had started to assume permanently) - when it last went down for maintenance I got redirected to https://status.marginalia.nu/?query= ... which said, and still says, "Site down for maintenance" across the top.

Oh, that's a bit unfortunate. I've redesigned that page a bit.
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