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Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

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Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#321

Post by igorkraw »

throwaway_4ever wrote: post #12

Something has deeply deeply changed in society for a fertility rate to go from 6 to 0.8 in 60 years, the living memory of a single life. Before, society grew with the average working age person only needing to half support an elderly retiree. Now, that same working age person will need to support more than 2 elderly retirees themselves, over 4 times the resources. Has it occurred to people that, maybe, modern fertili…

Before we start talking about tragedy of the commons with fertility, how about we fix the surrounding factors that cause people to have babies later in life or only one (subsidies are a good start, but they need to be massive if the surrounding systems and culture don't change)? And if we are worried about "dysgenically wiping ourselves of the earth" (a phrasing which I observe, with no implications intended, to jvery close to those used in the great replacement and white genocide conspiracy theories), how about we start massive immigration-and-integration programs? And stop doing business with the most oppressive ones...personally know a Qatari woman trying to escape that country but she can't leave without a male guardian signing off on it.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#322

Post by JamesBarney »

girvo wrote: post #304
nunb wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

adoptee turned to hard drugs (opiods) in his teens. the opinion was: what do you expect, the father was an addict too. at the time I was shocked as I was so firmly in the nurture camp.

Addiction, and specifically OUD is complicated, but there is real evidence that genetics plays a sizeable role in the physiological dependence side of it. However the main risk factor for trying and then abusing opioids, for example, is trauma, typically but not only in childhood. Basically, it’s both nature and nurture, as most things are. Where the percentages lie for both, I don’t think we know yet.

Trauma is deeply intertwined with genetics.

For instance parents who have genes that increase impulsivity are more likely to e beat their kids exposing them to trauma, the kids are more likely to do dumb things that expose themselves to trauma, and the kids are more likely to do impulsive things like try drugs.

So it's hard to disentangle what portion of the effects of trauma are direct and which are confounds.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#323

Post by Thorrez »

Dalewyn wrote: post #299
Thorrez wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be based on the idea that the only feedback mechanism for improving sperm is to have sperm fight with other sperm. That's not correct though. Whatever trait in sperm leads to pregnancy more often will be evolutionarily selected for. There doesn't need to be any direct fight between sperm.

The basis for how "healthy" sperm is is implied to be how mobile it is, and in an environment where sperm are competing to reach the egg first, being more mobile is absolutely a trait that will be evolutionarily selected for because less mobile ("less healthy") sperm will conceive less. But in an environment where that doesn't matter anymore, it's only natural that sperm "health" will consequently deterioriate. Natur…

If health has no effect on conception success, I don't see any reason to be worried about declining health.

I agree that in-vitro and artificial insemination could remove an important feedback mechanism for sperm evolution, and that would be a cause for worry.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#324

Post by jasonfarnon »

jdkoeck wrote: post #279
lettergram wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, this sounds environmental in nature… I wouldn’t be surprised if this is intentional. That said, all I have is the constant drum of “the world is over populated” by leaders around the world to back up my reasoning for potentially being intentional. Plenty of non-intentional possibilities as well.

> That said, all I have is the constant drum of “the world is over populated” by leaders around the world to back up my reasoning for potentially being intentional. You might want to consult with a professional, that’s paranoid thinking.

A quick google search leads me to an NYT article: "In the last several days, the British government’s environmental adviser declared it “irresponsible” to have more than two children. And Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, asserted that including contraception in the stimulus package could reduce government spending."

If China wanted to reduce population in 2022, would it announce a mandatory one-child-policy? Or would it use any number of other more subtle techniques to reduce fertility?

So OPs remark doesn't sound very paranoid to me. It sounds unjustified--I can think of a million innocent reasons fertility is decreasing.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#325

Post by oezi »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #227
brnt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual, society is not preparing itself for new economic realities (many I speak to do not understand this particular one at all), but, has it occurred to you that this is very good news in terms of livability on planet earth and our continued existence? Sure, humans will adapt but only when it's too late, as usual, but at least this is a change in positive direction. Forever growth is nonsensical, and this isn't t…

Good news for who? While developed nations are below replacement rate, many developing nations are having over half a dozen children per family. The aging population of developed countries is not conducive to production and a healthy economy. This will lead to immigration. If this trend continues, people from the developing nations will eventually inherit the developed world. Until they too fall below replacement rat…

You haven't looked at the data it seems. There are only a couple of countries left with 6 children per family. Every other country is already on its way to 2 children or below.

The global average is now 2.5 children per women.

The age of huge population growth is effectively over.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#326

Post by moomoo11 »

s5300 wrote: post #317
moomoo11 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American (immigrant) I'm honestly really alarmed by seeing the high birth rates in countries that are well, to put it bluntly, kinda backwards (I'm from one of them btw). One of the reasons we moved to a country like the US is to be away from a backwards minded, theocratic af, corrupt society. To see that these types of countries are actually booming while highly progressed ones are depressing is super depressi…

I’m sorry, but if you thought the US fit the criteria you’ve just described, you’re sorely mistaken…

Last I checked the government isn’t lynching people. Do we have crazies? Duh. But to compare the “crazy” in US to some of these places is either privileged ignorance or willful ignorance. There’s a reason we moved here, even with the issues present here. They’re magnitudes less.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#327

Post by spaceman_2020 »

lettergram wrote: post #146
decafninja wrote: post #106

My wife and I are Korean-American, albeit with many ties to our country of origin. Something I've noticed is that many couples that do want a child have a very difficult time conceiving. People are having kids at a later age on average, but even younger couples seem to have a hard time. Various gynecological disorders seem to be very common too - fibroids, endometriosis, adenomyosis, amongst others, all of which affe…

As soon as you hit 30-32 the rate of issues conceiving and issues with the baby grow exponentially. How long have you been seeing this trend? There’s a lot of experts who have been arguing that everything from pesticides to vaccines will slowly degrade our ability to produce [healthy] offspring. The general reasoning is fairly straight forward - if one thing damages your DNA or what have you, then it might be anywher…

> As soon as you hit 30-32 the rate of issues conceiving and issues with the baby grow exponentially.

The "exponential increase" is still very low in absolute terms

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#328

Post by akvadrako »

adrianN wrote: post #211
shadowofneptune wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infertility is not the leading issue when people are asked, 'why are you not having children?'. Until it is, I don't see how it can be more important than societal barriers.

Lower sperm count and lower desire to have children might have a common cause.

Lower desire might even be causing lower sperm counts.

Anyway, sperm counts are not outside the normal range. It was just that certain groups had higher than needed levels.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#329

Post by jxramos »

brnt wrote: post #193
remarkEon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way your hypothesis is plausible (ignoring everything else that’s weird and troubling about it) is if everyone on the planet decides to go along with it. Not every society has this problem of low fertility, and those who own the future are the ones who show up.

Fertily reduction correlates strongly with increased prosperity worldwide. Policy making and cultural attitudes play a role too, but the correlation is uncontested and rather evident.

Sometimes I wonder if it’s a short term trade off. If you carve out of the effort budget that portion allotted for rearing the next generation and swap it out for or bias it strongly toward higher technology development, deeper universities, or whatever, then you cut yourself off the branch you sit on so to speak when the degree of that bias is so out of proportion. Maybe a generation can afford to delay the investments into the demands of population continuation. If the delay prolongs too long and bleeds into the next generation and interferes with how they define fulfillment in terminal non regenerative endeavors then they have effectively made their choices and continuation is not one of them.

That phrase the meek shall inherit the earth, I wonder about lately. The meek, the non power searching types who don’t busy themselves with all the variety of non regenerative endeavors that consume all those who chart courses out into deep space and all its loneliness perhaps avoid these population traps and mentalities that lead to the end of a people. The salt of the earth, those who preserve humanity effectively. What a startling pack of implications seem to be packed into that statement so pregnant with meaning.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#330

Post by jxramos »

carrolldunham wrote: post #308
throwaway_4ever wrote: post #12

Something has deeply deeply changed in society for a fertility rate to go from 6 to 0.8 in 60 years, the living memory of a single life. Before, society grew with the average working age person only needing to half support an elderly retiree. Now, that same working age person will need to support more than 2 elderly retirees themselves, over 4 times the resources. Has it occurred to people that, maybe, modern fertili…

I suspect having children is similar to keeping slaves, in the sense that we realized that slavery is unethical even though it was "just what we do" since time immemorial, and was necessary for our lifestyle levels. People will realize that it's unethical to create beings, burdening them with the struggle to maintain the life they've been attached to, in order to (explicitly, in your case) 'benefit society'. Society…

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