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What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

nytimes.com

21–30 of 42 posts

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#21
While the article makes good points, I disagree with its fundamental premise that the case system is a bad way to prepare students for the practice of law.

The article offers what is really an academic critique of law school education. In effect, it says, "wouldn't it be so much better if we could just dispense with all that abstract case-law analysis and get on with teaching prospective lawyers how to draft contracts, how to try cases, how to handle client interviews, how to give strategic advice for doing acquisitions, how to negotiate personal injury settlements or divorce arrangements, how to represent clients before federal regulatory agencies, how to handle equity and debt funding for business ventures, and all the other things lawyers do." And it answers that question by saying, in effect, let's have experienced practitioners teach students in lieu of those who have been professors all their careers and who emphasize abstract academic writing as a primary means to career development, let's dispense with the classic core curriculum that teaches old cases like Hadley v. Baxendale as part of a student's foundational training and put in its place a lot of clinics where someone can guide students in how to negotiate, document, and close deals and in how to try cases, etc., and let's generally adopt an approach to legal education that allows students to be "client ready" by the time they first set foot in a law office on graduation. How is this to be achieved in a practical sense? The article does not say. It posits the problem and suggests that there are theoretical alternatives to the current system without offering answers.

To learn to practice law well is a huge undertaking. Here is crude guide:

1. Learn issue-spotting. This is analogous to a doctor learning how to diagnose maladies. If you never see what the legal issues are in a given situation, you will have no clue about what is or isn’t important in a deal or in a dispute. A do-it-yourselfer in law most often falls short here: he will fill in the form as instructed but will fail to see the traps and pitfalls along the way or will fail to spot strategic opportunities for doing something better just because he is flying blind. A law student will do better in having been trained to spot the issues in ways that academic knowledge affords. A seasoned practitioner will do all that and much more in being able to guide clients based on having been through real-world experiences involving those issues many times before. It is basically a combination of brains, foundational knowledge, and experience. Ultimately, you need all three if you are to practice law well.

2. Learn to communicate well, particularly in writing. Law is often about words, their meaning, and their impact. As a lawyer, you often need to persuade, or to reassure, or to cajole, or to intimidate, or to do whatever the occasion calls for in serving the legitimate needs of clients. If you can’t speak well, and if you can’t write well, you will be an inferior lawyer. Conversely, to be a skilled lawyer for many purposes, you need to master the art of both oral and written advocacy (I elaborate on this here: http://grellas.com/articles.html).

3. Learn to think strategically. Law can involve many complex areas. The student will have a grasp of the theoretical complexity. The inexperienced practitioner will have some sense of how that complexity works in practice. But only a partner-level lawyer will have a consistent ability to take all that complexity and be able to handle it strategically - that is, be able to see the big picture, to understand how all the component parts fit in, to identify what matters most for a given situation, and to know how to sort through it all intelligently and efficiently to help achieve a client’s goals.

A new grad in law will be at a serious disadvantage if he lacks a solid grasp of critical legal principles that are taught precisely by the case system. You won't be a great practitioner if that is all you have but you will likely be a poor one if you lack it. You will also be better for having done moot court or law review (or both) because these will help you master the art of communicating. But, even if a new grad comes in ideally equipped in all these ways, there is no bypassing the apprenticeship part of law, the learning by doing. In my experience, it takes about seven years for a new grad to grow from green lawyer into a highly efficient and strategic lawyer. That is what it means when a lawyer becomes a partner.

Can the apprenticeship part effectively be merged in with the academic part during law school? In limited ways, yes. But it can't displace the academic part without serious loss to the student. The current system of legal education is full of problems and flaws but the solution does not lie is dispensing with or severely minimizing the case system of learning legal principles. In the end, you can fault it all you like but I still say, "three cheers for Hadley v. Baxendale." In the end, this remains a foundational part of good lawyering.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#22

It is easy to teach and learn the practicalities of a profession. But it is the difficulty to enter, the amount of abstract thinking and study required plus the prestige that gets you higher salaries in the end. It is like saying, look I have made it so far so I am pretty able to do anything if you train me more. If Universities were employee factories then salaries would be lower, service prices would be lower (most…

"But it is the difficulty to enter, the amount of abstract thinking and study required plus the prestige that gets you higher salaries in the end."

The problem is that the "difficult to enter" is artificial and exists primarily as a way of ensuring high salaries of current lawyers through the law school requirement; Clifford Winston explains as much in First Thing We Do, Let's Deregulate All the Lawyers, (http://www.amazon.com/First-Thing-Lets-Deregulate-Lawyers/dp...) which is worth reading for anyone interested in the issue.

It used to be that one could "read" for the bar and hang out a shingle announcing that you're a lawyer. This didn't seem to hurt anyone except existing lawyers. People are reasonably good at figuring out who might be okay at a job and who won't be; the nominal "protection" they get in the form of law-school credentialing is not that far from the "protecting" they might get from Tony Soprano.

P.S. Solid first comment; welcome to HN.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#23
Yes. Colleges are not trade schools. If you want fancy letters after your name, you are going to need to learn all the theoretical stuff about your field, and people are going to ask you about that stuff in interviews. If you just want to write a Ruby on Rails app, you can save yourself the $150,000 and 3 years, 364 days, 21 hours by reading "Teach yourself Ruby on Rails in 3 hours".

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#24

To me, this article perfectly captures what is wrong with legal education: students are plunking down $150,000 @ ~8.0% to learn how to support themselves practicing law, and in exchange they get three years of abstract classroom lecturing. Add into the equation documented outright fraud in employment statistics reporting on the part of law schools and you have what is legitimately a scam going on. Best of all, there'…

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?pagewa...

This was a good story, recent JD with $250k in student loans, no job, and he knows he needs to stay calm.

Incidentally this from 2nd page of googling "law school student loans" (the same google search done by hundreds of thousands of college juniors every year), buried in a sea of websites telling you how easy it is to make law school, business school or whatever your dream is, attainable/affordable.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#25
So it's not just that CS departments are graduating engineers who can't solves FizzBuzz, law schools are graduating lawyers who can't file a merger certificate.

This goes to the heart of what education should be about. Foundations and theory, or vocational training.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#26

It is easy to teach and learn the practicalities of a profession. But it is the difficulty to enter, the amount of abstract thinking and study required plus the prestige that gets you higher salaries in the end. It is like saying, look I have made it so far so I am pretty able to do anything if you train me more. If Universities were employee factories then salaries would be lower, service prices would be lower (most…

"But it is the difficulty to enter, the amount of abstract thinking and study required plus the prestige that gets you higher salaries in the end." The problem is that the "difficult to enter" is artificial and exists primarily as a way of ensuring high salaries of current lawyers through the law school requirement; Clifford Winston explains as much in First Thing We Do, Let's Deregulate All the Lawyers , ( http://ww…

You can still apprentice and then take the bar in California, without attending law school, and that hasn't seemed to do anything positive for the price of legal services in that state.

Winston presupposes that increasing supply will decrease costs, but he fails to understand that it's not the ABA that's limiting supply. The DOJ smacked them down in the 1990s for trying to limit supply--the accredit law schools as quickly as people can open them up.

Rather, what limits supply is how many students Harvard, Yale, etc, are willing to enroll. Big firms hire almost exclusively from the top 15-20 national schools, plus the very top students at the regional schools. The limitation in supply of those people drives the firms' cost structures. And people keep bringing their business to these firms because they're afraid of losing litigation or screwing up a deal and are willing to pay for the abstract comfort of the credentials.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#27
As a law student I think the article misses a few points.

1) The case method is a great way to teach concepts. Working with hypotheticals and seeing how rules interact is extremely useful, and something I greatly missed in my engineering education where I spent 4 years just watching some TA do derivations on the board.

2) Schools don't teach outdated law as the article seems to imply. Sure you read some old cases in the process, but some of the basic areas of the law haven't changed that much! To take the example of Hadley v. Baxendale used in the article, it was true in 1850 that damages for breach of contract are limited to those that were foreseeable by the parties, and it's still true today! When I took contracts, our book started with Hadley, but went on to describe several cases that arose in the dispute between Texaco and Pennzoil when they were both trying to acquire Getty.

3) Law school doesn't leave you any more unprepared to practice law as engineering school leaves you to practice engineering. Indeed, law school does a much better job teaching you to "think like a practicing lawyer" than engineering school does to teach you to "think like a practicing engineer." The problem is that a lot of the courses that teach you lawyering skills are elective, and people would rather take "law and social change" or something fluffy like that. At our school we have extensive clinic offerings, and my friends and I are doing everything from poking around in a Superfund site to helping defend criminals. And the professors aren't all eggheads. My tax ethics and business associations professors are partners at local law firms, my telecom and environmental law professors practiced in the field for years before coming to teach, my clinic professor was general counsel at a major corporation, etc.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#28
I see something very similar happening in many Computer Science papers and the areas in which some CS academics have chosen to focus their time. It's not as bad as what goes on in Law School, certainly, but there is definitely a divide between what is important to industry (which is often much more about engineering) and academics (who need to publish something which will get them tenure, which means it has to pass muster with senior academics in the field).

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#29
post #28

I see something very similar happening in many Computer Science papers and the areas in which some CS academics have chosen to focus their time. It's not as bad as what goes on in Law School, certainly, but there is definitely a divide between what is important to industry (which is often much more about engineering) and academics (who need to publish something which will get them tenure, which means it has to pass m…

A difficulty is actually predicting that, though, especially if you're looking for medium-term influence rather than usable-immediately. For example, many "practically oriented" software engineers would've derided Okasaki's thesis, Purely Functional Data Structures, as pointless mathematical masturbation, until a decade later it became one of the core parts of Clojure, which suddenly (some) software engineers found useful.

Re: What They Don’t Teach Law Students: Lawyering

#30
post #21

While the article makes good points, I disagree with its fundamental premise that the case system is a bad way to prepare students for the practice of law. The article offers what is really an academic critique of law school education. In effect, it says, "wouldn't it be so much better if we could just dispense with all that abstract case-law analysis and get on with teaching prospective lawyers how to draft contract…

That's a good write-up on the benefits of law school. My biggest problem with the current structure of JD programs isn't that they're useless, but that they're mandatory.

For instance, you can make a case that majoring in Computer Science is a better than majoring in Math if you want to be a programmer, but you can't legally prohibit math majors from writing code.

I'd like to see alternatives to JD programs. I think that a lot of the core skills you described are certainly developed in good law schools, but they are also developed well in lots of different academic paths. For instance, suppose someone double majored in mathematics and english literature with exceptional grades, followed it up with a grad degree. Should that person be forced to go through three years of law school? If this person were allowed to pass the bar and was able to do so, should we deny him or her the right to enter the profession? Would this person be ready with a one year course of study (maybe a master's degree)? Even if it would be "better" for this person to do the full JD, is it worth the additional time and money (and deterrence)? Are we better off as a society if this person gives up on law? (People who hold JDs are probably better off, which of course has a lot to do with how rigorously the JD is enforced as barrier to entry).

There's a big difference between defending the JD as a good way to prepare for a career in law and defending the JD as the only way to enter the legal profession.

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