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Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

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Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#111
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> somebody's going need to turn you on your side every few hours when you're in that old folks home - what happens if there aren't enough people to do those jobs? Obviously we will have robots doing that job! Elder care is already a major area of robotics effort in Japan. And if the robots don't get there? Well, it's not terrible. A smaller population doesn't need as many buildings erected, or crops grown etc. Some p…

The notion of retirees dying alone surrounded by robots doesn’t strike you, at all, as kinda weird and dystopic?

What do you mean? Hopefully they will be surrounded by family members and friends, none of whom were burnt out or financially ruined by looking after an elderly relative but instead are receiving and providing love and support while robots do the "dirty work" as it were.

You might look how elderly patients and other end-of-life patients are treated by their (almost all quite low-paid) carers. It's pretty shocking, but the experience of being the person providing that care is also pretty shocking.

I think you underestimate the emotional and physical labour involved in looking after a dying person, and in particular a relative. I saw (mostly remotely) my mother in law die and her two younger daughters restructured their lives to help her -- and this despite the twice daily visits from the Diakonie to change dressings, attend to medication etc. And, because that was in Germany there was no meaningful financial burden for this process.

There's another factor: my mid-80s mother (herself a physician) doesn't want human caregivers for privacy and prodding sake. She doesn't mind human physiotherapist or actually talking to another doctor about her complaints. But she doesn't want people fussing over her. And her mother in law (my grandmother), from a completely different culture from a completely different continent, also hated the consequences of losing her autonomy. She was still delivering meals on wheels at 89, and when she finally needed assistance in her 90s, just couldn't stand it.

IMHO machines that support more autonomy for people are an unalloyed good.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#112
post #19

What's the harm? By the end of the century robots will be doing most of the work anyway. People can concentrate on the things that matter to them instead.

Robots don't buy products or services, meaning your revenues are shrinking. Meanwhile growing numbers of elderly citizens who require care are going to be supported by an ever smaller pool of young workers who will be overworked instead of starting families of their own. You have a spiral of death which is likely unavoidable.

Perhaps they need not be overworked because the amount of human labour needed will be greatly reduced.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#113

My first kid just reached 18. Now I'm seriously thinking of having another one. Remember when we were younger and the world's population hit 7 billion, everyone was really, really concerned about overpopulation??? I even did not want to have any kids because of this. Now, Korea is seriously going to be worse than even Japan. And faster too. Back in Jamaica one of my grandma had 7 children, the other one had 8 (with 2…

The answer is easy. Middle easterners want kids for cultural and religious reasons. I know any talk of religion and/or culture is verboten in modern American discourse but it's a significant factor in most the world. Yet it makes most Americans uncomfortable

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#114

My wife and I are Korean-American, albeit with many ties to our country of origin. Something I've noticed is that many couples that do want a child have a very difficult time conceiving. People are having kids at a later age on average, but even younger couples seem to have a hard time. Various gynecological disorders seem to be very common too - fibroids, endometriosis, adenomyosis, amongst others, all of which affe…

why adoption instead of IVF?

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#115

Something has deeply deeply changed in society for a fertility rate to go from 6 to 0.8 in 60 years, the living memory of a single life. Before, society grew with the average working age person only needing to half support an elderly retiree. Now, that same working age person will need to support more than 2 elderly retirees themselves, over 4 times the resources. Has it occurred to people that, maybe, modern fertili…

Talking about “developed countries” here, not SK specifically. Is declining fertility really such a societal and evolutionary danger when we’re talking 1.4-1.5? If you think of us all as one race, the human race, the fact that a few corners of the world are declining in fertility is arguably an environmental victory that could soften some crises’s in the future. We are like 99.9% genetically similar, why risk gutting…

> If you think of us all as one race, the human race, the fact that a few corners of the world are declining in fertility

It is not a few corners of the world. It is currently "developed countries", but we have no reason to believe that the non-"developed countries" will do any better.

> is arguably an environmental victory that could soften some crises’s in the future. We are like 99.9% genetically similar, why risk gutting the carrying capacity of the planet to preserve the 0.001% of genes that give us sparkling blue eyes?

Putting to a side for now the blase attitude to several societies slowly disappearing due to lack of births:

1. Much of society is built around the implicit assumption of there being more people in the future.

2. The carrying capacity of the world is only of interest to us as long as we are around for it. All of humanity suddenly disappearing tomorrow would also do wonders for the world's carrying capacity.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#116
post #92

I have 3 kids with one due at the end of the year. All are from the same woman and we’ve known each other since being teenagers. We are planning to have 5-7 total. They really add a richness to life. It’s fun to see people stare when we go out.

Yeah at our church the average is probably 4-5. There are dozens of families like this. Were planning 5-6 like you.

Events with all the kids are lovely and many of the adults who grew up in this church know the other adults because they all used to be kids here once.

Great community and a lovely life.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#117

My wife and I are Korean-American, albeit with many ties to our country of origin. Something I've noticed is that many couples that do want a child have a very difficult time conceiving. People are having kids at a later age on average, but even younger couples seem to have a hard time. Various gynecological disorders seem to be very common too - fibroids, endometriosis, adenomyosis, amongst others, all of which affe…

why adoption instead of IVF?

IVF is incredibly expensive and certainly not guaranteed to be successful. Might have something to do with it.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#118

My wife and I are Korean-American, albeit with many ties to our country of origin. Something I've noticed is that many couples that do want a child have a very difficult time conceiving. People are having kids at a later age on average, but even younger couples seem to have a hard time. Various gynecological disorders seem to be very common too - fibroids, endometriosis, adenomyosis, amongst others, all of which affe…

why adoption instead of IVF?

Watching her friends and my friends' wives go through it, we've been scared off.

Add to that, the usual HN phenomenon that we're observing how the world and our countries (USA & Korea) seem be going down the toilet, and that makes us feel hesitant to bring a new human being into the world, especially when there are kids already here that could use a loving family.

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#119

My wife and I are Korean-American, albeit with many ties to our country of origin. Something I've noticed is that many couples that do want a child have a very difficult time conceiving. People are having kids at a later age on average, but even younger couples seem to have a hard time. Various gynecological disorders seem to be very common too - fibroids, endometriosis, adenomyosis, amongst others, all of which affe…

why adoption instead of IVF?

It gives a child a normal childhood and saves them from a system of foster care that can never fully meet the needs of a child?

Re: Korea shatters its own record for world’s lowest fertility rate

#120
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that’s OP’s point (plus I’m not convinced we really are more productive). OP’s point appears to me to be something like “a good measure of productivity is how many people a single working person can support”. Today, most families need to have two parents working. This makes a pretty good inference, I think, about how much things have changed.

Most families do not need to have two parents working if they live like people 60 years ago. Ie one car, a 1000 sq ft home, vacations in the local area, home made lunches, hand me down clothes, no AC, no electronics, no braces.

That's a great illustration as to why inequality matters, not just poverty.
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