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“We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

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Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't have a choice about giving information to governments. There's a fourth amendment for a reason so I'm obviously anti dragnet. Private parties though may opt into providing anything legal to other private parties at their sole discretion and that's the nature of things. Despite the fact that the majority of Americans are making market choices that many of us would consider "not privacy respecting", that d…

If there were proper protections in place to protect privacy it doesn’t matter whether the violator is a government or commercial enterprise. Secondly, the courts have repeated ruled that the fourth amendment has nothing to do with privacy.

> If there were proper protections in place to protect privacy it doesn’t matter whether the violator is a government or commercial enterprise.

Legislative privacy protections make it impossible for you to sign certain things away contractually and/or make it impossible for someone else to ask you to do so contractually. The right to sell certain data to certain people at certain times, even if you have consent from the user, for example, can render a contract void. Of course legally limiting the things you can agree to in this way would limit the effect of these contracts. Don't sign shitty contracts though and you can get all of this today.

The government isn't bound by optional contracts though and as long as congress grants the government jurisdiction over everything not constitutionally interpreted to be covered by the fourth, government snooping is completely legal.

I agree with you. Congress should limit the government's data mining jurisdiction, but it seems hellbent on doing the opposite with things like PATRIOT, PRISM and wiretapping legislation. I think users should also stop being flagrant idiots with their data if they supposedly care about it so much. Users can effect change in the market by deciding not to do business with bad business practices. Meta says it's going to mix WhatsApp data with Facebook data and people boycotted, Meta backtracked (for awhile)... more of that, we can do both.

> Secondly, the courts have repeated ruled that the fourth amendment has nothing to do with privacy.

Privacy from whom? The fourth sets a bar for "unreasonable" searches of an individual by requiring a warrant for public access to "persons, houses, papers, and effects". The government can still ask you for information without a warrant and definitely will ask Google for information about you, which does not itself need to demand a warrant on your behalf. As stated above, everything that isn't explicitly enumerated as protected is fair game as well.

The constitution curtails the relationship between the government and the governed. The fourth says nothing about privacy from other private entities, corporate or otherwise.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#222
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar to gmail and youtube suspension process. It happens to you, you or someone makes your case on social media, someone in google may listen and modify the policy rules.

And then you get your life back?

I think that was the point of the sarcasm

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Varied, mostly practitioners. High value on non-partisans, demonstrated by inclination to make and entertain counterargument, and an extensive history of demonstrated preference. By the way, I cannot help but notice that your “former NSA counsel” remains anonymous. Susan Hennessey, nor anyone affiliated with Lawfare or Brookings meet the minimum criteria.

The NSA counsel being Glenn Gerstell: https://www.factcheck.org/2022/08/trumps-dubious-standing-or... https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/18/politics/trump-claim-standing... Ultimately it'll probably come down to Trump thanking his lucky stars that he owns a big chunk of SCOTUS.

Glenn seems fair, and he appears to answer a legitimate question reasonably. He's staying within his lane, which is narrow, and responding to a lead question. Both articles are tortured with journalistic misinterpretation. Frankly, you have to be able to contextualize with broader experience. Nothing to do with Trump or SCOTUS. I would bet if you asked Glenn 'Are claims necessarily retroactive or invalid from the get-go,' he would say, 'Absolutely no.' If you have a chance, ask him.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#224

Governments killing people without due process in this manner is criminal homicide. Each person needs to held individually accountable for their crimes. State secrets should be declassified and released. Each person's individual actions should be documented. And they should be tried in court and serve sentences commensurate with their level of participation. This does not secure the country. This creates enemies and…

I'm not sure why this isn't upvoted beyond anything here. For them to even admit they've killed people based on metadata means they could kill you for your uncle's friend's mom being a terrorist.

Since the Obama administration, any male over the age of 16 we kill anywhere is retroactively considered a legitimate target regardless of any "proof" of their guilt. Obviously this is a horrific policy that is a fig leaf to cover up for mass murder. Everyone involved in these murders going back a decade should be on trial for their crimes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/under-o...

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#225

Please, with the anniversary coming up shortly, remember the event that they used as an excuse to start "programs" like these: 9/11. I was too young and dumb and propagandized to know what I was getting myself into, signing up to go fight "those evil terrorists", but it didnt take long for me to realize something wasnt right. I spent the vast majority of my life since I got out of the Corps trying to understand the w…

> totalitarian surveillance state never let a good crisis goto waste! As soon as the first plane hit i bet the lights started getting turned on and the servers booted up.

You're assuming way to much competence and foresight and way to little evil intent.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#226
post #45

What's up with those comments in the comment section

I was confused as well, so I poked around a few other articles - it seems to happen pretty frequently on this site.

Most of them do seem to be vaguely related to the articles so my best guess is that it's a combination of individuals trolling + lax/nonexistent moderation. The handful of articles I checked seemed to be above the board unless I missed some dogwhistles somewhere, so not sure why exactly the site seems to be a target for this specific sort of trolling.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#227
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about simply not murdering people on the other side of the world? Here’s a mental experiment for you: what would you do if Russia, lawfully (according to Russian laws) executed people in US? Because that’s exactly what US is doing to the rest of the world.

Well, that sounds like a great idea. But, it needs to be a two way street. Convince terrorists planning terror attacks to not murder people on the other side of the world, then I'm sure America would drastically cut down on the number of people it killed on the other side of the world. > what would you do if Russia, lawfully (according to Russian laws) executed people in US? Because that’s exactly what US is doing to…

Number of victims of terrorist attacks on the other side of the world is orders of magnitude lower than number of victims of American invasions. Even 9/11 was a minor episode compared to the invasion it served as an excuse for.

Essentially, you’re assuming US are always the good guys. And the easiest way to explain this is the foundation of all US politics: racism.

Having said that, US _arr_ the good guys at the moment, and let’s hope it stays that way.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see the problem with this either. It seems like they would have liked to capture him, but it was infeasible. The guy essentially declared war on the US with his actions. What special steps should they take because he is an American citizen? A little different, but imagine if an American decided to go fight for Germany during WWII. Should he receive any special consideration above what native-born Germa…

> What special steps should they take because he is an American citizen? The due process afforded in the constitution. With, you know, trials and juries and such. > A little different, but imagine if an American decided to go fight for Germany during WWII. Should he receive any special consideration above what native-born German soldiers got, before Americans start shooting towards him? I would say that an operation…

At the time of the assassination order, he had been out of the US for over 6 years, and was a public leader in a war against the US that had already killed thousands of American civilians. He was convicted and ordered to "capture dead or alive" by a Yemeni court.

Should the US conducted the formality of convicting him of treason in absentia? Sure.

None of this remotely excuses killing his children.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's illegal to assassinate even mass shooters in the US. It's only legal to kill them in defense during an active situation. A drone strike feels like a pretty active situation no? I'm not being pedantic, just pointing out that there is a ton of grey area that your statement doesn't account for, and we'd need to dive into the details of this situation to determine whether the assassination was justified or not. Ev…

> A drone strike feels like a pretty active situation no? Following that logic, drone striking you in your house is an active situation. No constitution needed. No, I obviously meant that you're allowed to kill as LEO _in response_ to an active situation. > For example, let's say you had credible information indicating someone was going to bomb and elementary school, and you saw them running down your street towards…

> Following that logic, drone striking you in your house is an active situation. No constitution needed. No, I obviously meant that you're allowed to kill as LEO _in response_ to an active situation.

My point was that you haven't defined what an "active situation" is. I could say "we should only kill people when we have to" and that'd be accurate, but that'd be useless for the point of this conversation, which at this point seems to be defining "have to".

> The real world is not the TV show 24. The purpose of the constitution is to constrain such actions even if extrajudicially drone striking every person with a modicum of 'credible evidence' against them would be easier or might lead to less tragedies.

Indeed, however, such things happen and people are forced to act during them. I also highly doubt the playbook the military uses is "do we have at least a modicum of evidence? then kill them."

>Additionally, you're ignoring that there was no active situation Al-Waki was accused of participating in. Just political speech the government didn't approve of.

I am ignoring no such thing as I made no comment on his situation other than to say I do not have enough information to make a judgement.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#230
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What other due process is there, relative to the Authorization for Use of Military Force act of 2001? Congress gave POTUS the power to go after people like al-Awlaki with it. It's been on the books for 20+ years, the Supreme Court has essentially ruled it is a constitutional giving of power by Congress to POTUS e.g. in Hamadi vs Rumsfeld. If the US military could have captured al-Awlaki without incident, then drone s…

How about simply not murdering people on the other side of the world? Here’s a mental experiment for you: what would you do if Russia, lawfully (according to Russian laws) executed people in US? Because that’s exactly what US is doing to the rest of the world.

To make the parallel clear:

If Russia executed people that were waging war against Russia from within the US, that the US had already convicted of making war on Russia, was the US also trying to capture or kill at the same time?

I'd expect the US government to say "thank you".

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