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“We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

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Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#151

Post by BobbyJo »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #57
the_lonely_road wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false equivalence though and not what the alternative option is here. The government was killing its enemies 100 years before the word digital was invented and will continue to do so as long as government exist. They will use every technology invented in the pursuit of doing so. Blaming metadata signature based approaches is no different than blaming their use of satellites, metallurgy, hell the wheel is a b…

In 2010, an American citizen was killed in a drone strike by the US military, without a trial or any attempt to make an arrest. This was the first time in history that a US civilian was killed by the US military. Before 2010, we were doing just fine without executing citizens on suspect legal grounds. Edit: Edited to state that this was not fire of combatants in a combat zone.

This, though a reasonable thing to be concerned about, seems unrelated to the conversation about metadata's role in sanctioned assassination.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#152

Post by Consultant32452 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #130
the_optimist wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You invented 'retroactive.' I suppose you are blasé about this because it applies to someone of an opposing political party.

Is there any actual evidence that he declassified all of that material while in office? Did he even tell anybody? No? Well, then, any such claims are necessarily retroactive, or else they're invalid from the get-go. Which do you prefer?

Any ideas you have about the President having to follow any sort of official process regarding classification are nothing but illusions. The most you're going to get here is he's irresponsible in a way people don't like but is not criminal.

Even if I were to imagine he were technically breaking the law with some of these documents, look at it from a practical standpoint. At one point he could've done whatever he wanted to with any documents, including tweeting them publicly. He may or may not have taken some sensitive information and stored it in a building wholly owned (secured) by the secret service. There is not really any risk here, any crimes would be mere technicalities.

Of all the crimes every President in my lifetime has committed, including Trump, mishandling some secret documents in this way is a total nothingburger. It's almost certainly not a crime and even if it is a crime it's a paperwork technicality crime.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#153

Post by Banana699 »

darawk wrote: post #127
forgetfulness wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the appeal process for being assassinated by the CIA like?

Pretty similar to the appeals process for being killed by the terrorist that the CIA chose not to assassinate.

We should exterminate the entirety of humanity then, this is the only sure way to decrease terrorism to exactly 0.

Although when you think about it, those single-celled bacteria look awefully suspicious and up to nothing good.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#154

Post by webnrrd2k »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #57
the_lonely_road wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false equivalence though and not what the alternative option is here. The government was killing its enemies 100 years before the word digital was invented and will continue to do so as long as government exist. They will use every technology invented in the pursuit of doing so. Blaming metadata signature based approaches is no different than blaming their use of satellites, metallurgy, hell the wheel is a b…

In 2010, an American citizen was killed in a drone strike by the US military, without a trial or any attempt to make an arrest. This was the first time in history that a US civilian was killed by the US military. Before 2010, we were doing just fine without executing citizens on suspect legal grounds. Edit: Edited to state that this was not fire of combatants in a combat zone.

> This was the first time in history that a US civilian was killed by the US military.

I'm sure that there were plenty of other times it happened, but, for a relativly well-know and documented incident in 1932, check out the Bonus Army[1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army#:~:text=The%20Bon....

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#155

Post by BobbyJo »

monocasa wrote: post #128
googlryas wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see the problem with this either. It seems like they would have liked to capture him, but it was infeasible. The guy essentially declared war on the US with his actions. What special steps should they take because he is an American citizen? A little different, but imagine if an American decided to go fight for Germany during WWII. Should he receive any special consideration above what native-born Germa…

> What special steps should they take because he is an American citizen? The due process afforded in the constitution. With, you know, trials and juries and such. > A little different, but imagine if an American decided to go fight for Germany during WWII. Should he receive any special consideration above what native-born German soldiers got, before Americans start shooting towards him? I would say that an operation…

Due process is subject to feasibility on American soil as well. Mass shooters seem to get very few days in court.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#156

Post by lp0_on_fire »

ta8645 wrote: post #79
pclmulqdq wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2010, an American citizen was killed in a drone strike by the US military, without a trial or any attempt to make an arrest. This was the first time in history that a US civilian was killed by the US military. Before 2010, we were doing just fine without executing citizens on suspect legal grounds. Edit: Edited to state that this was not fire of combatants in a combat zone.

> This was the first time in history that a US citizen was killed by the US military. That seems incredibly unlikely. Friendly fire incidents have been a fact of war, pretty much forever.

Friendly fire, _by definition_, is a mistake.

Friendly fire, _by definition_, is not something the Army _actively plans_ to do.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#157

Post by shadowgovt »

bombcar wrote: post #141
ta8645 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This was the first time in history that a US citizen was killed by the US military. That seems incredibly unlikely. Friendly fire incidents have been a fact of war, pretty much forever.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that no US non-military citizen was killed by either side in the Civil war.

Upon failing to retake Fort Sumter, Union troops turned their cannons on the city of Charleston itself, killing an estimated 80 people over the course of the 500+ days of bombardment. To this day, the area is host to unexploded ordnance (rusted black-powder shells, basically).

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#158

Post by [deleted] »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #57
the_lonely_road wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false equivalence though and not what the alternative option is here. The government was killing its enemies 100 years before the word digital was invented and will continue to do so as long as government exist. They will use every technology invented in the pursuit of doing so. Blaming metadata signature based approaches is no different than blaming their use of satellites, metallurgy, hell the wheel is a b…

In 2010, an American citizen was killed in a drone strike by the US military, without a trial or any attempt to make an arrest. This was the first time in history that a US civilian was killed by the US military. Before 2010, we were doing just fine without executing citizens on suspect legal grounds. Edit: Edited to state that this was not fire of combatants in a combat zone.

[deleted]

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#159

Post by shadowgovt »

RHSeeger wrote: post #116
pclmulqdq wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State national guard units are not the US military. A dead giveaway is that if something happened on US soil, it is not a US military operation.

Clearly not true. First item on this list: https://www.military.com/military-life/6-times-military-was-... > 1863: The New York City Draft Riots > the governor [...] had to call in U.S. Marines.

It's complicated. The cynic's answer is "The United States prides itself on not turning its military on the civilian populace, and the National Guard is the practical method by which they hold a nation together while refraining on paper from such use of force."

As with so many aspects of American governance, they "solved" an either-or problem by implementing both ideas.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#160

Post by shadowgovt »

bluecalm wrote: post #62
ImHereToVote wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer to be tried in a court of law, you?

It's not the choice you have though in areas where those killings take place. It's either drone strikes or nothing. Boots on the ground to catch bad guys and bring then to court isn't possible.

Oh, it's possible. It just risks American lives, so it's obviously unpalatable when robots are available (at the cost, of course, of arms-length evaluation of kill orders).
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