Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

nypost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 215 posts

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#191

Post by isitmadeofglass »

vasco wrote: post #65
charles_f wrote: post #32

I can somewhat understand the logic of charging me a recurring fee for a service that costs the provider a recurring cost, gets regular improvements, and where data is maintained. TV/sat radio? Ok (not that I would buy that). Remote tracking / start? Why not. Internet access in the car? Sure. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. I would hope that given how much you charge me for the product, these come included, but M…

This is less to do with blackmail than to do with optimising manufacturing. It is cheaper for manufacurers to produce all the cars with the same heated seats, but not allow you to use them if you don't pay the recurring charge (as long as enough % of customers opt-in), than to manufacture two versions of the car, one with the seats and one without, just so that you can feel like you aren't being blackmailed. You shou…

> This is for example how CPUs and GPUs are sold, and many other products.

What on earth kind of CPU or GPU have you bought where basic features require a reoccurring subscription?!

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#192

Post by natch »

reaperducer wrote: post #111
charles_f wrote: post #32

I can somewhat understand the logic of charging me a recurring fee for a service that costs the provider a recurring cost, gets regular improvements, and where data is maintained. TV/sat radio? Ok (not that I would buy that). Remote tracking / start? Why not. Internet access in the car? Sure. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. I would hope that given how much you charge me for the product, these come included, but M…

Remote tracking / start? Why not. Remote start does not require a subscription or the internet. We've had remote start for at least half a century with just a keyfob. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. Does not require a subscription or the internet. My car's satnav is updated via a USB. $200 from the dealer, but is completely optional. Maybe I do it once every five years. Maybe never. I don't need up-to-the-second…

Live traffic data has been useful for me.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#193

Post by isitmadeofglass »

The real reason they are doing this is because they see the gigantic gap between themselves and Tesla, even though Tesla isn’t even close in production volume, and the major difference is that Tesla has positioned itself to be a Feature subscription auto company and gotten a “tech evaluation” while they are seen as just mounding and moving metal.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#194

Post by hammock »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #150
hammock wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is charging a recurring fee for these products any worse than a car lease, which also charges a recurring fee for use of a product? (Thought experiment, don’t downvote me just because)

No downvote needed, it's a genuine question, and I'll try to answer based on my view. Leasing is just a different form of buying the car, in a sense. Yes, the contract/agreement is not equivalent to a purchase, but in essence what you are doing is transforming a set of unknowns (will I have to repair my car twice in the first three years? How much will I spend? How many kilometers will I drive?) with more known quant…

An alternative would be to simply sell a car with or without heated seats, at two different prices. This is how it was done. The subscription model gives the customer more flexibility, since if she changes her mind about wanting heated seats halfway through ownership, she can cancel and won't have to pay the full price of the heated seats option. Or vice versa - if she decides she wants heated seats, she can turn them on more easily with a subscription than going somewhere and getting them aftermarket installed.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#195

Post by natch »

The main record-scratching surprise moment for me with most of these is the outrageous pricing for what is offered.

Like taking Subaru's subscription for example, for $99/year after the first three years, for a very limited set of features.

Whereas to compare, there are brands that for the same $99/year give you network connectivity with full screen web browsing, access to YouTube and other streaming services in park (including without wifi, using mobile data included in the price), live traffic data, remote start, remote warming/cooling, remote viewing of live dashcam video from every part of the car front/back/side, remote honk, remote light flash, remote unlock/relock, remote window venting/closing, remote seat heater prewarm, map data updates, remote charge monitoring, remote charge stop and start, remote alarm notifications, remote status notifications of pretty much anything, remote viewing of car location, remote viewing of car speed, status, driving direction, temperature… I mean putting all that up against Subaru's offering for the same price, Subaru is just nuts.

I won't mention the competing brand which actually catches flak on the Internet for having subscriptions, because then I'll be accused of being a FaNbOi.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#196

Post by nebula8804 »

arielweisberg wrote: post #12

As long as competition remains real I think there will always be a manufacturer or model that gives you close to what you want. Mazda for example has stuck with physical controls and hasn't been making any noises about pushing a bunch of things behind a subscription. There is a subscription for remote start and some useless notifications, but at the moment it's nothing to worry about. I don't think they can afford to…

Huge Mazda fan here but I think this may be coming down the line for them as well because they are becoming more reliant on Toyota as they cannot afford to do an independent transition to EVs. As a result they have partnered with Toyota sharing ICE engine designs, cross shipping models(Toyota Yaris being a re-badged Mazda 2) and moving together (at a snails pace) towards a unified EV architecture. If Mazda starts sharing more components (like infotainment or designs for value added features like heated seats) then a subscription model might be coming there as well.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#197

Post by Gordonjcp »

pards wrote: post #118
Gordonjcp wrote: post #45

One of the features mentioned is a "remote starter" that lets you start the engine from outside the vehicle by pressing a button on the key. I'm not sure why anyone would call this a "basic feature", or indeed why anyone would want it.

Remote start is a basic feature in cold climates like Canada, especially if you have young kids. It's hard enough to wrangle kids into the car, let alone when it's -40°C outside. Remote start allows the interior of the car to warm up beforehand.

So without checking the vehicle is in a condition to start safely, you can just fire it up without looking? Cool, cool...

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#198

Post by tunap »

doodlesdev wrote: post #98
tunap wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As long as competition remains real I think there will always be a manufacturer or model that gives you close to what you want. Like a 3.5mm heaphone jack, expandable storage, replaceable batteries & a physical keyboard on my smart(sic) phone?

Yes. https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-8110-4g Serious and not serious at the same time. My point is that demand is what drives change in a free market, people chose phones without a headphone jack, expandable storage and replaceable batteries so companies chose to sell what consumers wanted, if the demand for these things were so large then more companies would be producing devices with those. Also remember…

'Consumers' consume whatever is given, it seems. With the exception of the phys kb, each of those omissions lead directly to more control & revenue for the producer(s). Cheaper to build, as well. People did not "choose" to pay more for less, they take what is offered. When all/most manu's collude, it's not really a free marketplace, IMO.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#199

Post by vaidhy »

DoughnutHole wrote: post #152
the_other wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is dumb and a sign that the system we have created to operate in is broken. Another sign. Programmers talk about code smells. This is a code smell about our resource extraction and sharing, and money systems. It's like how it's "cheaper" to farm some foods and ship them half way around the world via plain and ship, than it is to farm the same food and ship it 100km across land. The "cost" doesn't reflect _in any…

You're overselling the "true cost" of maritime shipping - it's far and away the most efficient form of freight we have. Ocean freight has carbon emissions of 7g of CO2 per tonne-kilometre. Road freight by comparison has emissions of 137 gCO2/tkm - nearly 20 times the ocean emissions. So, you would need to ship something 2000km before it has equivalent emissions to a 100km trip by road. So yea you're right that it'd b…

Isn't your first conclusion only true if every point in the country is close and equi-distant to a port and all ports get the same goods? In practice, you still truck multiple tonnage. In your example, the port is in LA and say, manufacturing plant in Michigan and I am in Atlanta.. it is still less carbon-emitting to truck from Michigan to Atlanta than ship from Shenzen to LA and then truck from LA to Atlanta..

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#200

Post by whearyou »

the_other wrote: post #96
vasco wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is less to do with blackmail than to do with optimising manufacturing. It is cheaper for manufacurers to produce all the cars with the same heated seats, but not allow you to use them if you don't pay the recurring charge (as long as enough % of customers opt-in), than to manufacture two versions of the car, one with the seats and one without, just so that you can feel like you aren't being blackmailed. You shou…

This is dumb and a sign that the system we have created to operate in is broken. Another sign. Programmers talk about code smells. This is a code smell about our resource extraction and sharing, and money systems. It's like how it's "cheaper" to farm some foods and ship them half way around the world via plain and ship, than it is to farm the same food and ship it 100km across land. The "cost" doesn't reflect _in any…

“The "cost" doesn't reflect _in any way_ the resource/energy usage, or pollution emission of the system: only the human "cost", which is biased and lobbied strongly towards maintaining existing power”

This is the crux, and I totally and completely agree

Post reply on HN