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Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

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Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#161

Post by s1artibartfast »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #92
s1artibartfast wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is a safety feature, it is a convenience feature. Any driver can still turn down the brights and any reasonable one will.

It is a safety feature for the people in other cars being subjected to high beams. As an aside, one option I like to use to get people behind me to turn down their high beams is to orient the side view mirror so the high beam goes back to them.

I get how high beams work, and hate how some people don't turn them down.

That said, I still think it's a convenience feature because turning down your brights is something that everyone is already capable of doing and legally obliged to do.

Very similar to assisted driving features that control tailgating. Should every car with assisted driving capability have to enable it?

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#162

Post by throw10920 »

doodlesdev wrote: post #110
AlexandrB wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you're right, but the TV market gives me pause. There's plenty of competition, but all the major brands include advertising and spyware in their TVs.

Because most people don't think "is there spyware or adware on this smart TV" before they choose to buy one. In fact most people don't even really think a lot before buying a TV. This is the kind of thing that indeed regulation could be awesome, even though from a purely financial/objective point of view removing all of this would be kind of bad, I think it would be in the best interest of humanity.

Here's the problem: the same problem that caused consumers to not care about smart TV antifeatures in the first case (apathy) also causes them to not care about what their representatives are doing.

Because of this, any "regulation" that will actually happen is regulatory capture and/or performative regulation (there's probably a better term for this, but the idea is "regulation that looks good but doesn't actually do anything), because the citizens don't pay attention to these things, contact their representatives, or vote based on these issues, which is a necessary prerequisite for good regulation.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#163

Post by hiidrew »

jacooper wrote: post #4

The smarter cars get, the worse they are for consumer rights and Privacy. Unfortunately its a general trend, everything that is getting "smartified" is becoming an anti consumer black box, and If you care about your privacy or owning the device you bought, you are out of luck. It happened with TVs, and now its coming for cars too, there might be options now but they won't last long, is there a dumb TV in your local s…

Well said. I hope consumers begin to recognize this and there becomes a trend for 'dumb products'.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#164

Post by AlexandrB »

vasco wrote: post #65
charles_f wrote: post #32

I can somewhat understand the logic of charging me a recurring fee for a service that costs the provider a recurring cost, gets regular improvements, and where data is maintained. TV/sat radio? Ok (not that I would buy that). Remote tracking / start? Why not. Internet access in the car? Sure. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. I would hope that given how much you charge me for the product, these come included, but M…

This is less to do with blackmail than to do with optimising manufacturing. It is cheaper for manufacurers to produce all the cars with the same heated seats, but not allow you to use them if you don't pay the recurring charge (as long as enough % of customers opt-in), than to manufacture two versions of the car, one with the seats and one without, just so that you can feel like you aren't being blackmailed. You shou…

But CPU and GPU capabilities aren't sold on a subscription basis (though I know Intel tried something in this direction), and their features don't vanish if/when they are resold.

I could tolerate car "binning", but only if it was burned into the hardware/firmware by the dealer and always transferred along with the physical vehicle.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#165

Post by throw10920 »

lukeschlather wrote: post #83

> Toyota, meanwhile, started charging $8 a month to remotely start vehicles using a key fob — a feature that had previously been free. It's probably not safe to operate these sorts of features in perpetuity. Funding the security team to deal with hacks seems necessary and the cost is reasonable. Really, it's comforting to hope that in 20 years time you might still get security updates. (As opposed to my smartphone wh…

If the product arrived defective (including security flaws), then the liability is on the manufacturer and they should fix it free of charge, because they sold you a product with a defect.

This is categorically different than software updates and feature releases - in that case, you can justify a recurring subscription, because extra value is being provided to the customer. In the bug-fixing case, the customer literally did not receive the value was promised to them (false advertising) - the bug represents an unfulfilled obligation, and the fix is not new functionality, but the fulfillment of what was already promised and paid for.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#166

Post by AlexandrB »

chrisseaton wrote: post #144
kgermino wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, again you can charge people a one time cost to enable it. Whether that happens at initial purchase or years later (in app purchase style) doesn’t affect whether it’s a one time or recurring cost.

Just multiply the monthly cost by how many months you intend to use the car. Are you happy with that cost? Then what's the issue? Why does the monthly-ness wind everyone up so much?

Because it hurts the second hand market. Now when you buy a used car you're paying new car prices for a given feature. Meanwhile, the seller can't charge a premium over a less-equipped car.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#167

Post by AlexandrB »

horsawlarway wrote: post #154
chrisseaton wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just multiply the monthly cost by how many months you intend to use the car. Are you happy with that cost? Then what's the issue? Why does the monthly-ness wind everyone up so much?

I own my cars forever (until death do us part - either me or the car). This winds me up because it's a raw, shitty deal: $18/m * 12m/y * forever = infinity. Even assuming a short lifespan for the car (10 years) it's STILL a raw, shitty, dumpster fire of a deal: $2160 vs the $500 for the actual heated seats today. BMW knows this. They are double dipping - optimize production costs, ream consumers, violate doctrine of…

Let's be real. Manufacturers are going to turn off the feature validation servers for older cars <10 years after sale, at which point that car just doesn't have that feature.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#168

Post by chrisseaton »

AlexandrB wrote: post #166
chrisseaton wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just multiply the monthly cost by how many months you intend to use the car. Are you happy with that cost? Then what's the issue? Why does the monthly-ness wind everyone up so much?

Because it hurts the second hand market. Now when you buy a used car you're paying new car prices for a given feature. Meanwhile, the seller can't charge a premium over a less-equipped car.

But you can also sell the same car to people who want heated seats and those that don’t and wouldn’t want to pay a premium for it.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#169

Post by lr1970 »

charles_f wrote: post #32

I can somewhat understand the logic of charging me a recurring fee for a service that costs the provider a recurring cost, gets regular improvements, and where data is maintained. TV/sat radio? Ok (not that I would buy that). Remote tracking / start? Why not. Internet access in the car? Sure. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. I would hope that given how much you charge me for the product, these come included, but M…

> I wasn't surprised that BMW, Tesla or Ford would do something like that.

Sorry to be pedantic, but it was GM not Ford mentioned in the article.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#170

Post by chrisseaton »

josephcsible wrote: post #156
chrisseaton wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it should be counted against the sale price of the vehicle itself But why? Why should they do that? For example a band that plays a concert counts on extras like merchandise sales to cover costs. Should the ticket price cover all their costs and is it unethical to also offer merchandise if they need it to cover costs? I can't understand the logic in this thread.

The part of giving drivers heated seats that actually costs the manufacturer money is the seat heater hardware, which is part of the vehicles that are wholly sold. Concert merchandise is fine because it has a cost that they only incur for people who actually buy it. For your concert example to be a valid comparison, imagine that everyone who bought a ticket to the concert were given merchandise, but told they weren't…

> The part of giving drivers heated seats that actually costs the manufacturer money is the seat heater hardware, which is part of the vehicles that are wholly sold.

And they’re recovering that cost and making some profit with these subscriptions.

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