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Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

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Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#411

Post by ZeroGravitas »

raydev wrote: post #224
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the opposite of what you'd be doing if you wanted the system to function correctly... But what if you didn't? Because you wanted to replace it, but it was dangerous to say that out loud? The Conservatives (and to some extent some Liberals as well) have been playing a long game -- since the 70s when it was introduced -- to get rid of medicare. It's incredibly popular with Canadians as a whole, but if you take con…

I'm still an outsider (recent immigrant to Canada) but my impression of right vs left politicians here reminds me very much of Dems vs Reps in the US. When the right obtains power, they incrementally and consistently put the pieces in place to ensure that the quality of gov-provided services decreases over time. Then when the left obtains power, they simply maintain status quo, never improving or fixing the problems…

Part of people not voting is because they've been trained to believe it doesn't help, by the people who don't have wide democratic support.

Like healthcare, democracy is just one more service they can sabotage and then turn round and blame for effect of their own sabotage.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#412

Post by roenxi »

xupybd wrote: post #297
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>with the objective of pushing private for-profit healthcare (which just doesn't make sense) Maybe it doesn't make sense for you, but it makes their buddies in the private sector a lot of money. And that's the game in capitalism, making a lot of money. The government competing with affordable options for everyone against the private sector is "bad for business".

You're correct that the game is to make a lot of money but the key to making that work is ensuring transactions are beneficial to all parties. It doesn't matter how you structure things you end up with some way to climb the hierarchy. The problem with pure communist systems is they try to prevent all hierarchies. Human nature attempts to circumvent this, the only way to do so is via corruption and political power. Co…

> It doesn't matter how you structure things you end up with some way to climb the hierarchy. The problem with pure communist systems is they try to prevent all hierarchies.

That is a massive non-sequiter though, nobody is suggesting that factory workers rise up and sieze control of the hospitals. Or even that nurses do so. The proposals for healthcare usually involve the oligarchs being in control and the public enforcing standards. Which typically turns out to be unsustainable because the middle class is where the people who know how to run things come from and they just got cut out.

The problem here is excessive centralisation where if (more practically, when) the government becomes corrupt or makes a bad decision it becomes illegal to do something different to the regulatory standard.

Politics by people with communist leanings isn't helping the situation, but the fundamental issue here is people keep proposing 'solutions' that don't work and effectively block people from actually solving the problems. Eg, I bet someone with a good idea of how to organise an independent emergency healthcare service wouldn't be allowed to do it in England.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#413

Post by ETH_start »

oliwarner wrote: post #116

This isn't a collapse of emergency healthcare, it's a very predicted collapse of community social care: hospitals can't discharge if they need a care home place that doesn't exist. Without inpatient bed availability, ERs and AMUs can't admit to specialties and everything gums up at the front door. Let's be clear: we do need many more doctors and nurses, but the existing ones can't do their jobs because their wards ha…

I don't understand. Social welfare spending, as a share of GDP, has never been higher in the UK:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long...

And this is amidst rising inflation adjusted per capita GDP, meaning even more rapid rise in real per capita social welfare spending.

Where is this "Tory penny-pinching" happening?

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#414

Post by amrocha »

makomk wrote: post #409
amrocha wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop fighting with the man in your head and actually engage with the argument. Private for profit companies inherently optimize for profits. Dealing the pollution costs money, so they don't do it. This is by design. This is a bad system, and it will never work no matter how much duct tape you throw at it. Neither government agencies or crown corps are perfect, but at least they're not inherently flawed either. Yes th…

Even if the water companies were state owned, dealing with the pollution would still cost money and there are a bazillion other demands on the state's finances which are more pressing than keeping rivers clean, such as providing healthcare. This isn't a hypothetical. Scotland has a state-owned water company, and it'd be impossible to write an article like this about theirs not because they're doing better - all indic…

If your entire argument is "better things aren't possible" and "it's bad in other places too" then that's pretty weak

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#415

Post by ETH_start »

oliwarner wrote: post #294
lotsofpulp wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Areas with poor, old populations can never pay their way. The root of the issue is that this area is now the country. Giving all old people the labor necessary to support them in old age was easier when the ratio of working people to non working people was much higher, in conjunction with old people not living as long. Turn that population pyramid upside down due to drastically reduced birthrates and medical technol…

You say that like it's an imperative but it's not. This is a choice. Through the government we elected, we choose to starve social care. We choose to starve education and so many other public services. Yes, our age profile made it more expensive, but so what? We choose to underfund it.

State provisioned social care is not starved:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long...

The burden of providing social care has increasingly been transferred from individual families, to the centralized state.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#416

Post by Valakas_ »

xupybd wrote: post #297
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>with the objective of pushing private for-profit healthcare (which just doesn't make sense) Maybe it doesn't make sense for you, but it makes their buddies in the private sector a lot of money. And that's the game in capitalism, making a lot of money. The government competing with affordable options for everyone against the private sector is "bad for business".

You're correct that the game is to make a lot of money but the key to making that work is ensuring transactions are beneficial to all parties. It doesn't matter how you structure things you end up with some way to climb the hierarchy. The problem with pure communist systems is they try to prevent all hierarchies. Human nature attempts to circumvent this, the only way to do so is via corruption and political power. Co…

We need to change human genes. That's the best long term way out of this. Corruption is just gene trickery. "Best for me, not for thee". Unless "thee" is genetically related.

Unbelieavable wealth and seeking power is gene survival. More wealth more survival resources. More power more survival and reproductive resources.

Genes drive everything that is "wrong" with the way things are.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#417

Post by was_a_dev »

nivenkos wrote: post #93
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a public sector salary cap in many parts of Canada, despite roaring inflation. And a general vibe from the public and the government that generally despises public sector unions and would almost certainly backlash against nurses and teachers should they sensibly decide to go on strike. For two years they busted their asses for the public in tough straits and now COVID numbers in the hospital system are still…

It's the same in the UK, junior doctors and nurses have had terrible compensation for years (the Conservatives even scrapped the student bursaries). And now they're surprised when they all leave for Australia and the USA where they can earn 3-4x as much...

My partner is a junior doctor, currently doing a rotation on the local A&E department.

She is the only junior doctor in that department that isn't waiting for their Australian work visa to come through.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#418

Post by noelherrick »

xupybd wrote: post #297
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>with the objective of pushing private for-profit healthcare (which just doesn't make sense) Maybe it doesn't make sense for you, but it makes their buddies in the private sector a lot of money. And that's the game in capitalism, making a lot of money. The government competing with affordable options for everyone against the private sector is "bad for business".

You're correct that the game is to make a lot of money but the key to making that work is ensuring transactions are beneficial to all parties. It doesn't matter how you structure things you end up with some way to climb the hierarchy. The problem with pure communist systems is they try to prevent all hierarchies. Human nature attempts to circumvent this, the only way to do so is via corruption and political power. Co…

If a hospital were worked owned and controlled, they’re not gonna bribe their Tory buddies to shutdown public medical services because most people aren’t that ridiculously selfish and no one individual gets wealthy. And if it’s a private hospital, the doctors and nurses will use profits to pay themselves well and cut down on costs, because again, they are face to face with people trying to pay foe their medical care.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#419

Post by sidewndr46 »

Scoundreller wrote: post #301
raydev wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still an outsider (recent immigrant to Canada) but my impression of right vs left politicians here reminds me very much of Dems vs Reps in the US. When the right obtains power, they incrementally and consistently put the pieces in place to ensure that the quality of gov-provided services decreases over time. Then when the left obtains power, they simply maintain status quo, never improving or fixing the problems…

> When the right obtains power, they incrementally and consistently put the pieces in place to ensure that the quality of gov-provided services decreases over time. My favourite was when one promised 'fiscal restraint' and no deficits, so they sold off a 99y lease on a tolled highway to plug their deficit. They promised prices wouldn't go up more than 30% in 15 years, but they went up 200%. https://www.thespec.com/ne…

While your point about aircraft landings is funny, I'm guessing general aviation in Canada is similar to that of the US. It's not really uncommon for planes to land on highways in the US. Even busy ones. It just isn't very interesting to be honest, so no one makes much point about it. I think the FAA publishes numbers on that sort of thing.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#420

Post by noelherrick »

WalterBright wrote: post #225
asdff wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand how people can simultaneously believe that governments are corrupt and the private sector would support the public's interests. Guess who is corrupting government: the private sector who only support their own interests.

I know this is difficult to understand how it works, but the beauty of the free market is everyone benefits while selfishly working for their own self-interest. Socialism, however, requires altruistic behavior, and very few people are consistently altruistic and self-sacrificing for the common good.

Socialism would absolutely not require selfless people-it would simple require that workers control and own the companies they work in, and the knowledge that fixing other people’s problems makes everyone’s life better. Less theft, violence, better mental health, no more mass shootings, no more homeless encampments.

Imagine if that co-worker that doesn’t contribute or might even drag the team down can just quit and play PS5. Glorious.

How do I know people don’t need coercion or even pay to produce great products? Open source software. Windows is capitalism and Linux is socialism. Which do you prefer?

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