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Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

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Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#91

Post by anthonyhn »

z3t4 wrote: post #39

Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that Android also uses the Linux kernel). The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I l…

>Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo.

There is a fork called Maemo Leste [0][1] that is actually still around and updated. I have it running on a droid 4, and it works pretty well. The UI is still the same Hildon UI. Definitely a fun OS and device to play around with, and interesting in that it's the only mobile OS I'm aware of that is running Devaun.

[0] https://maemo-leste.github.io/

[1] Technically a fork of Maemo, the predecessor to MeeGo.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#92

Post by hrbf »

jnwatson wrote: post #79
hrbf wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a niche market, possibly. However, I just don't see Valve as a company being interested in becoming a phone manufacturer. What would realistically be in for them? It's strategically mostly irrelevant to their core business, with the sole exception of the Steam Store. But to create, develop and support a whole phone platform (hard- and software) just to sell mobile games? I don't see it.

You underestimate the size of the opportunity. The mobile game market was $119 billion in 2021.

Given the complexities involved in such an endeavor, I'm still confident in my assessment, especially when confronted with a one-liner just throwing a large number against the wall. If Microsoft couldn't get a mobile OS off the ground, despite trying, I don't see what the opportunity size has anything to do with it. Focusing on (even casual) gamers with specialized hardware works for a gaming-focused company, whereas a general-purpose device would not. Compare Nintendo Switch and Steam Deck. Strictly speaking this is part of mobile gaming, with significantly higher margins.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#93

Post by yyyk »

There isn't any hope for Linux on the smartphone, at least not Linux as actually intended in the talk.

A proper solution needs to run perfectly on users' existing hardware or it won't be run at all. There are a lot of old unupdated devices which should be ripe for the picking. The only solution close to matching the OSS community's resources is the Android kernel for all of its problems. The Linux smartphone community is way too ideological (far more than even RMS was back when OSS started) to do it - they won't use Android, and their hardware would also be way behind for similar reasons.

So irrelevance it is, unless some rich sugar daddy company decides to make an entrance to the smartphone market, but I don't see any plausible contenders.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#94

Post by azinman2 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #65
kitsunesoba wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vanilla Android or AOSP might kinda have “Linux Spirit” but I’m not sure what gets shipped on most consumer devices does… lots of random things locked down (including boot loader, sometimes), crapware all over the place, drivers and kernel changes that aren’t upstreamed making it difficult to install anything but carrier/manufacturer-flavored Android, etc. I think most people rooting for “smartphone Linux” are lookin…

Even AOSP is running something quite far from a mainline kernel, although they've been gradually reducing the delta with Linux proper. It really is a fork.

But why is a fork still not Linux? Every major distributor runs a fork.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#95

Post by megous »

CharlesW wrote: post #30
lrvick wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is Linux but it has nowhere close to the fully open source freedom of a traditional Linux workstation. This is why I carry a tiny linux laptop.

Phones are not PCs/general-purpose computers. Do you want your TV to be a general purpose computer as well? (Having put my family through a Media Center PC and TV remotes with keyboards/trackpads for several years, I don't recommend it.)

You missed quite a lot of history then. Smartphones are general purpose computers for the last 12 years or so.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#96

Post by michaelt »

johndough wrote: post #42
Havoc wrote: post #16

Inclined to say no - mainly because of the camera. The gap between ability to mechanically take a pic and what the flagships are doing with AI driven post processing seems not only big but growing. Short of die hard linux/FOSS fans noticably worse pics is going to be an absolute show stopper

The problem is not AI - many of the best "AI" publications are open source after all. The problem is that hardware vendors do not provide access to their signal processing chip's internals. It is damn near impossible to even make a phone call these days without some obscure binary blob or magic chips that nobody knows what they do but are able to control every aspect of a phone.

> many of the best "AI" publications are open source after all.

In my experience there's also very little detailed documentation about what cutting-edge phone cameras are doing.

You can get some vague descriptions (focus stacking? exposure stacking? ISO stacking? ML bokeh? Special handling of faces in multiracial groups? Shake compensation? Super-resolution?) which is all very well shooting from a tripod - yet modern phone cameras do their magic at 4k 60fps even while moving? All while running on battery?

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#97

Post by megous »

johndough wrote: post #42
Havoc wrote: post #16

Inclined to say no - mainly because of the camera. The gap between ability to mechanically take a pic and what the flagships are doing with AI driven post processing seems not only big but growing. Short of die hard linux/FOSS fans noticably worse pics is going to be an absolute show stopper

The problem is not AI - many of the best "AI" publications are open source after all. The problem is that hardware vendors do not provide access to their signal processing chip's internals. It is damn near impossible to even make a phone call these days without some obscure binary blob or magic chips that nobody knows what they do but are able to control every aspect of a phone.

Some do. Pinephone Pro's ISP has some public docs and mainline Linux support.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#98

Post by coffee_beqn »

Teever wrote: post #31
nivenkos wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think of a Linux phone, I really want something that supports a full GNU/Linux desktop as convergence. The Steam Deck does this perfectly!

Damn, you got me thinking now, that Valve of all people could probably put out a Linux phone. The Steam Phone could be a game changer.

I don’t believe that can happen. The steam deck kind of works because they pack in a bunch of peripherals that won’t fit into a phone. The touchscreen experience on it is miserable. 99% of steam games with touchscreen controls would be totally a sad experience.

What it is is a laptop in a funny case.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#99

Post by est31 »

notmyaccountt wrote: post #29
NuSkooler wrote: post #18

It's mentioned already, but: Android. Discounting Android as "Not Linux" enough is a mind boggle to me. Perhaps not "GNU" enough, but certainly the spirit of Linux -- customized for the particular needs, stable, fast, works on a plethora of hardware, etc.

Google created an Android userspace that requires Google services to do anything meaningful. This violates everything Linux stands for.

I think it's better to come up with replacements for those Google services and apps instead of rewriting the entire operating system. You need to solve the same problems on a linux smartphone as well, so Android gave you a lot of time savings, and I doubt the app sandboxing is even remotely as good on those non-Android linuxes. For Google Play for example there is F-droid, for push messages/FCM there is UnifiedPush, for Google Maps there is Osmand.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#100

Post by kube-system »

bitwize wrote: post #85
realusername wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Phones are not PCs/general-purpose computers. That's just the opinion of the manufacturer, we don't have to agree. Phones have banking and government apps, they are general purpose computers from their usage alread

Bankers and governments don't want your phone to be a general purpose computer. That's why you can't run your banking app on a rooted phone. From a security standpoint, "general purpose computing" is really just "arbitrary code execution" -- generally a bad thing. We are approaching the sunset of general purpose computing in the consumer space. There's nothing you can do. Accept it and move on.

“General purpose computing” does not imply any particular security model, it refers to a device with a variety of end user purposes.

It is in contrast to a special purpose computer, which smartphones clearly are not.

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