Remote startups will win the war for top talent • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#401

Post by librish » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:33 PM UTC

dogman144 wrote: post #357

librish wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a very cynical way to look at the world. Work friends are real friends in the same way your pick-up league or board game night friends are real friends. You like some of them more than others, and you probably won't stay friends with most of them if you stop coming to whatever shared activity brought you together initially unless you make a concerted effort to stay in touch.

I think it’s a cynical way to look at work but those views don’t extend to my world. The issue with work socialization is career advancement involved, which means money, which means basic security for you and your family is on the line. I can be open and myself with my friends playing board games. Part of openness is testing out ideas and risking conflict. If I say something wrong, the worst that happens is I get a n…

Those seem like fairly arbitrary lines to draw. If I told you that the worst case scenario for your board game night is that you offend someone to the point where they pull out a gun and shoot you you would probably tell me that's an event that's so unlikely it's not worth considering.

Similarly I feel like choosing to not socialize in a normal way at work because someone might get you fired, while not as unlikely as getting shot, is still incredibly unlikely and not worth considering. This does assume a base level of social competence of course.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#402

Post by ystad » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:35 PM UTC

Remote only works when everyone in the company are 100% remote

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#403

Post by jejeyyy77 » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

asoneth wrote: post #195

ekianjo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can pay as much as you want but after a certain threshold having the possibility to work from home is paying for itself in many ways. No stress from commuting, more flexibility and more focus.

> You can pay as much as you want but after a certain threshold I'm curious if there is a multiplier a company could pay you personally to convince you to endure the commuting stress and inflexibility of an in-person office? I.e. would you go back to a commute for 1.2x, 1.5x, 2x, or 3x your current salary?

For me personally, 2x-3x.

And that is assuming a ~20-30 minute commute I don't need to move/uproot my family.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#404

Post by welshwelsh » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

bbarn wrote: post #274

redleggedfrog wrote: post #66

"Your remote team is my company's opportunity." Purely anecdotal based on my own experience, but at my company we have some people who work in an office and lots more that work remotely. The in office staff contribute more ideas, work, fixes, and functional software than the remote teams by a factor of 4 or 5, or sometimes, depending on the in office worker, 10 times. Those are hard numbers right out of our project m…

I am convinced that in office software teams produce more and better code overall than remote ones do. I am remote now and go to my office about a week every two months, and those weeks tend to be ones I can rally the team to get big initiatives done. I put in the same effort when I'm remote but it just doesn't work out the same. You can blame tooling, you can blame the company not being remote-first or remote-forwar…

For in-office work to come back, employers need to stop tracking time.

Most office workers work 2-3 hours a day max. The 8 hour workday is is a relic from factory work.

If I was to go back to the office, this is what my day would look like:

* Show up at the office at 10:30, just in time for the meeting

* Put in a couple hours of solid work, finishing whatever story I planned to complete today

* Go home at 1:30 to smoke weed and play videogames

That's what I do now, except I don't have to commute. What's going to change to make office work more appealing?

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#405

Post by asoneth » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

biomcgary wrote: post #381

asoneth wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has been nearly the exact opposite of my experience. As one advisor put it: researchers who prefer to keep their door closed often publish more papers over the course of a year, but researchers who keep their door open often publish more impactful research over the course of their lifetime.

Research impact is typically measured by peer driven citations. Peers also review papers and award grants. All of the above are easily gamed metrics by social engineers independently of the actual value of their work. I've been working remotely for years with in-person visits on a monthly to quarterly basis. Brain-storming and planning in person definitely create value, but getting the work done is a different story.…

I'm curious how you would determine the "actual value of their work" without considering peer review or award grants? I'm not saying that shoddy work with good marketing deserves to be successful, but doing brilliant research that no one knows about seems like it's not particularly valuable either.

I've also worked with engineers who completely discounted the importance of the social aspect of their work. Frequently even their strongest work had minimal impact on the organization.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#406

Post by whateveracct » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

slothtrop wrote: post #211

whateveracct wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of public slack channels works pretty well in my experience. People end up talking about a lot in plain view and people hop in etc

This feels about as intimate and satisfying as talking with randoms on discord. Or posting on HN.

It's not like it's random people every time though. There tend to be regulars in certain discussions and interest groups. Just like forums and chat rooms (on which I've definitely made connections with "randoms" due to discussing shared interests online and having a persistent identity there.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#407

Post by dogman144 » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

librish wrote: post #401

dogman144 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s a cynical way to look at work but those views don’t extend to my world. The issue with work socialization is career advancement involved, which means money, which means basic security for you and your family is on the line. I can be open and myself with my friends playing board games. Part of openness is testing out ideas and risking conflict. If I say something wrong, the worst that happens is I get a n…

Those seem like fairly arbitrary lines to draw. If I told you that the worst case scenario for your board game night is that you offend someone to the point where they pull out a gun and shoot you you would probably tell me that's an event that's so unlikely it's not worth considering. Similarly I feel like choosing to not socialize in a normal way at work because someone might get you fired, while not as unlikely as…

Well risk is about likelihood vs impact, and work interactions are shaped by risk.

It’s a low likelihood but high impact event to be shot by your board game buddy.

It’s a med or high likelihood and high impact event that your career will suffer bc of a misstep in a social sphere at work, or imo more accurately it’s a medium/high likelihood and high impact reward that by navigating work socialization correctly and as anything but a normal social interaction, you’ll do well.

Both result in high impact/high likelihood results for my family.

So why take the risk/lose out on the reward just so I can have work friends who are truly friends?

Fwiw, there is legit academic research on the work social dynamic being about anything except normal friendships. The Organization Man is one example of academic research, the other is https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... which is a bit more pop-psychology that still rings true vs experiences.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#408

Post by LtWorf » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

redleggedfrog wrote: post #66

"Your remote team is my company's opportunity." Purely anecdotal based on my own experience, but at my company we have some people who work in an office and lots more that work remotely. The in office staff contribute more ideas, work, fixes, and functional software than the remote teams by a factor of 4 or 5, or sometimes, depending on the in office worker, 10 times. Those are hard numbers right out of our project m…

If they wanted to have success they'd be trying their best to play rock in a stadium, not settle for working in your company :D

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#409

Post by throwaway2037 » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:45 PM UTC

ajaym0 wrote: post #303

UncleOxidant wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after having dealt with cubicle farms for so many years. Or worse, open floor plans.

Open floor plans can be a double edge sword buddy

Yes, exactly. When you sit right next to your business users and listen to their day-to-day activities or phone calls, it is priceless "ambient information". However, if you sit next to completely unrelated, but noisy team, it is hell! The trick is floor layout. The best companies in my experience obsess about floor layout to get relevant teams close!

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#410

Post by bbarn » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

tsm wrote: post #323

bbarn wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am convinced that in office software teams produce more and better code overall than remote ones do. I am remote now and go to my office about a week every two months, and those weeks tend to be ones I can rally the team to get big initiatives done. I put in the same effort when I'm remote but it just doesn't work out the same. You can blame tooling, you can blame the company not being remote-first or remote-forwar…

Counterpoint: pre-Covid I had an in-office job, and I would specifically request a WFH day if I had an especially meaty problem to write. The office was full of distractions, whereas at home I could focus in on writing code without background noise. Several of my coworkers followed the same pattern.

That's more of a respect for your coworkers thing than a remote vs. office thing though?

Headphones on meant leave me alone in every shop I've been to. I also, personally, rarely have extended periods of just coding. The value I add is almost exclusively helping other people work through problems at this stage in my career. "Distractions" are "the job" for many of us.