Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 74 posts

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#51

Post by thatguy0900 »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #44
labrador wrote: post #33

Related: How do we warn future civilizations about the danger of our nuclear waste? This has been studied and I always found it interesting: How to build a nuclear warning for 10,000 years’ time https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200731-how-to-build-a-n...

I genuinely believe the people working on this problem are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of trying to make the waste repository into something highly visible, or mystical, they should instead choose a remote and inhospitable location where attempting to access the repository is economically nonviable for any future civilization. Assuming civilization collapses or regress to pre-industrial levels where the conc…

We have to keep current day expenses in mind as well. It's true that noone in the future would be dragging waste back from Antarctica, but noone now wants to drag it there either. Same with shipping it across a continent or ocean into a desert. And if we're talking 10k years into a post apocalyptic future, your deserts may no longer be a desert.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#52

Post by toss1 »

imoverclocked wrote: post #36
toss1 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Another option: Time capsules of data sent out into space in containers that can survive re-entry in thousands of years. Ideally with a lot of flashy light effects and a persistent smoke trail on re-entry. Interesting idea indeed! How to solve the issue that there is a ~70% chance the capsules will re-enter and fall into an ocean area?

If it’s not a projectile, we have the tech already. Landing on Mars is done autonomously today but making a robot/computer to last more than 1000 years isn’t in our wheelhouse yet.

>>making a robot/computer to last more than 1000 years isn’t in our wheelhouse yet.

Yes, exactly my point - we can very nicely control landings to within a meter today. How can we make a craft land with any precision say 2-5000 years in the future? It'll require a power source good for 5000 years, a computer that still operates flawlessly for 5000 years, fuel that doesn't evaporate or degrade for 5000 years, and a rocket engine system that will operate properly in 5000 years. Even reduce that spec to 1000 years, or just a 500 years, and I don't see how we get there with today's tech.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#53

Post by tra3 »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #44
labrador wrote: post #33

Related: How do we warn future civilizations about the danger of our nuclear waste? This has been studied and I always found it interesting: How to build a nuclear warning for 10,000 years’ time https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200731-how-to-build-a-n...

I genuinely believe the people working on this problem are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of trying to make the waste repository into something highly visible, or mystical, they should instead choose a remote and inhospitable location where attempting to access the repository is economically nonviable for any future civilization. Assuming civilization collapses or regress to pre-industrial levels where the conc…

You may not be giving them enough credit. Last ice age was roughly 10,000 years ago. At these time scales it's difficult to predict what's going to happen... Of course lets not forget the costs either. Someone has to pay for this.

Seems to be highly irresponsible to leave poisonous garbage around no matter what.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#55

Post by microtherion »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #18
andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I love the fictional idea that I have that some billionaire will create multiple underground caverns around the world in geologically stable places, each containing the knowledge of the world - engraved onto aluminum plates. A vast cavern of tunnels and chambers and catacombs built only to preserve the worlds knowledge. I imagine in 10,000 years some future explorers making their way into such a cavern and finding al…

There's a few projects like that already happening, like Github's code repository on Svalbard. That said, I think one big reason why the artifacts mentioned - Sumerians, Mayans, Egyptians, or even Vesuvius - were preserved was because they were lost; buried in the desert, overgrown in dense jungles, buried under volcanic rock and ash, etc. For something to stand the test of time, it has to be lost. Al-Quaeda and ISIS…

> For something to stand the test of time, it has to be lost.

I agree. Some of the people quoted in the article advocated writing on a monumental scale in order to preserve it, but I don't think that gives particularly good odds of preservation. To add to the examples you cite, the Georgia Guidestones were pretty much a modern experiment in preservation through monumentalism; they painted a monumental target on their backs right away, and ultimately ended up being destroyed this year.

The way to go is probably massive replication in a compact, durable medium.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#56

Post by Nannooskeeska »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #44
labrador wrote: post #33

Related: How do we warn future civilizations about the danger of our nuclear waste? This has been studied and I always found it interesting: How to build a nuclear warning for 10,000 years’ time https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200731-how-to-build-a-n...

I genuinely believe the people working on this problem are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of trying to make the waste repository into something highly visible, or mystical, they should instead choose a remote and inhospitable location where attempting to access the repository is economically nonviable for any future civilization. Assuming civilization collapses or regress to pre-industrial levels where the conc…

Tom Scott has a great video[0] about the Onkalo spent nuclear fuel repository in Finland[1], in which he talks about one of the reasons that they decided on the particular area - why would anyone dig there? Skip to 4:29 in the video for the relevant info.

[0]: https://youtu.be/aoy_WJ3mE50

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repo...

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#57

Post by Narishma »

andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I love the fictional idea that I have that some billionaire will create multiple underground caverns around the world in geologically stable places, each containing the knowledge of the world - engraved onto aluminum plates. A vast cavern of tunnels and chambers and catacombs built only to preserve the worlds knowledge. I imagine in 10,000 years some future explorers making their way into such a cavern and finding al…

> I love the fictional idea that I have that some billionaire will create multiple underground caverns around the world in geologically stable places, each containing the knowledge of the world - engraved onto aluminum plates.

You mean the knowledge that said billionaire deems important, and/or makes them look good.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#58

Post by cwmoore »

toss1 wrote: post #52
imoverclocked wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s not a projectile, we have the tech already. Landing on Mars is done autonomously today but making a robot/computer to last more than 1000 years isn’t in our wheelhouse yet.

>>making a robot/computer to last more than 1000 years isn’t in our wheelhouse yet. Yes, exactly my point - we can very nicely control landings to within a meter today. How can we make a craft land with any precision say 2-5000 years in the future? It'll require a power source good for 5000 years, a computer that still operates flawlessly for 5000 years, fuel that doesn't evaporate or degrade for 5000 years, and a ro…

Make millions of them and some will last outlier timespans. One low-power lightbulb that has been illuminated for over a hundred years:

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/longest-b...

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#59

Post by rockfishroll »

andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I love the fictional idea that I have that some billionaire will create multiple underground caverns around the world in geologically stable places, each containing the knowledge of the world - engraved onto aluminum plates. A vast cavern of tunnels and chambers and catacombs built only to preserve the worlds knowledge. I imagine in 10,000 years some future explorers making their way into such a cavern and finding al…

There's a sci-fi book 'The Mote In God's Eye' that touches on this concept.

Spoiler Alert...

Humans discover an alien planet/race and eventually realize they've destroyed and rebuilt civilization many times. They've learned to build 'museums' for future civilizations to discover that house a roadmap to all of their advanced technology, but biological constraints (they have to reproduce or they die, ensuring extreme population pressure) mean that global war is basically inevitable. So they're stuck speed-running this cycle where they start from the stone age, rapidly rebuild an extremely advanced society based on guidance from the 'museums', experience extreme population growth, bomb themselves back into the stone age, rinse and repeat. There's a hope that if they can just push technology a little bit further each cycle, they might be able to reach a point where they can resolve the underlying issue, but it's unclear if that's a pipe dream.

Interesting take on the "pre-tech society discovers keys to future tech" trope. Does advanced technology actually solve all problems, or just it just let us skip ahead along the timeline to the same conclusion?

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#60

Post by aeternum »

tra3 wrote: post #53
BitwiseFool wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely believe the people working on this problem are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of trying to make the waste repository into something highly visible, or mystical, they should instead choose a remote and inhospitable location where attempting to access the repository is economically nonviable for any future civilization. Assuming civilization collapses or regress to pre-industrial levels where the conc…

You may not be giving them enough credit. Last ice age was roughly 10,000 years ago. At these time scales it's difficult to predict what's going to happen... Of course lets not forget the costs either. Someone has to pay for this. Seems to be highly irresponsible to leave poisonous garbage around no matter what.

The 'poisonous garbage' was deep in the earth previously, and there are naturally occurring pockets of gas that are arguably even more dangerous.

Given how distributed knowledge now is, it's pretty ridiculous to think that nuclear will be completely forgotten.

Post reply on HN