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Remote startups will win the war for top talent

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Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#231

Post by FpUser »

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #145
andrewingram wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. During my somewhat passive job search, I've only been considering companies that have an office local to me (i.e. Central London). I've been working remotely since the start of the pandemic, and I simply don't like it. Sure, I don't miss having to commute or offices with bad noise pollution controls, but I miss everything else. Most of all, I miss being in town at the end of the day and being able to pop to th…

> yes, this is a me thing, but it's also always been a me thing I feel like picking jobs off of a desire to live a social life and feel like part of a community is extremely normal and valid. Remote work is essentially accepting that the primary way you'll engage with your colleagues and labor is through a screen, and that is an uncomfortable feeling (to some people at least)

>"I feel like picking jobs off of a desire to live a social life and feel like part of a community is extremely normal "

Been on my own and remote since 2000. I am remote with my clients save for occasional face to face meeting when possible and I am remote with my subcontractors. It feels "extremely normal" to me and the last thing I've ever want is my friends and people I hang out with being supplied by my workplace. Does not mean that I've never made friends when I did "normal work" long time ago but it was just extra.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#232

Post by goalieca »

ctrlmeta wrote: post #118

The last time I checked the remote startups were not even willing to pay me half of what companies with brick-and-mortar offices were willing to pay me. Sorry, I can't see how remote startups will win the top talent with such less pay!

They're paying far more than brick and mortar companies are where I live. Outside of SV and perhaps Boston and NYC, this is very likely the case.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#233

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #162
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if those personality differences get considered when they throw everyone into a single room with a few low cubicle walls. I wonder if the market gives a shit about being fair to those who have personalities that thrive in said cubicles. Thirdly, I wonder if those who thrive in remote give a shit about being fair after having dealt with cubicle farms for so many years.

> after having dealt with cubicle farms for so many years. Or worse, open floor plans.

Yeah, until I started working from home I hadn't had walls for a decade.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#235

Post by cmrdporcupine »

I don't like working remote. I like working in an office. I find it more productive when my coworkers are right by me. Software development done well is an interactive, creative process. It is easier if you and I work together and can brainstorm on a whiteboard, or over lunch, and reduce the friction. And then go off to our respective cubes to hack it up and then share our work. That's the process I've found works best for teams.

But I want to work at what I'm doing, for the startup that I'm contracting for, in the space that I'm doing work in. And that's not here (they're not "anywhere" really) and all the local (southern Ontario, west of Toronto) companies suck, underpay, and are generally mismanaged.

And I'm not moving and giving up the life that I have I have so I can be where the interesting work is. I've done that once already in my 20s -- left my parents and siblings to go to the only place in Canada where the tech industry was really a thing (at the time) -- and I won't be made to do it again.

Canadian tech companies have been profiting from underpaying their engineering staff (relative to the US market) for a couple decades. Now they will suffer because they have to compete with remote. Recession might change this, but for now I intend on taking advantage of this.

So, remote it is. It's not perfect. But I'm not going to drive almost 2 hours a day to get underpaid by some mediocre local company run by mediocre management and mediocre investors. There's a larger world out there, accessible to me for the first time ever.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#236

Post by deegles »

rngname22 wrote: post #37
bearjaws wrote: post #16

I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my last big-co job the leadership just kept waiting for 'covid to be over' and not improving our remote work culture. Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. My company is fully remote, we embraced the GitLab model…

Have you considered that those of your view and those espousing that remote is more difficult might have different personalities, levels of need of social interaction, or lifestyles? Have you considered that your company is self-selecting for those who flourish in remote, but that those whose personalities differ are self-selecting for working in an office environment? It's OK for there to not be a one size fits all…

It's hard for me to imagine an office environment that would make up for commuting every day. Unless I live walking distance from the office I'll pick fully remote every time.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#237

Post by jvanderbot »

redleggedfrog wrote: post #66

"Your remote team is my company's opportunity." Purely anecdotal based on my own experience, but at my company we have some people who work in an office and lots more that work remotely. The in office staff contribute more ideas, work, fixes, and functional software than the remote teams by a factor of 4 or 5, or sometimes, depending on the in office worker, 10 times. Those are hard numbers right out of our project m…

My team is about 40% remote. About 25% nonlocal remote. If I had to pick my top 5 performers, two would be remote non local, one would be remote local. And two would be onprem. Seniority, past experience, action-orientation, and conscientiousness are the determoning factors it seems.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#238

Post by dont__panic »

dfadsadsf wrote: post #101
mooreds wrote: post #31

The $1M question in my mind is: Will wages in, say, Lagos or Buenos Aires rise to SF/NYC levels? Or will the reverse happen? Economics says that it depends on the value of the labor, but cost of living matters too (or at least, has in the past within say, the USA). I think this essay https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala... shows evidence that says the answer is "yes", that we'll see a weird fr…

There are virtually no engineers in Lagos and very few in Buenos Aires who compete with engineers in SF/NYC (the one getting SF/NYC salary) in terms of skill set. One thing that many people overestimate is number of competent engineers outside of well known tech hubs. I know that it was big surprise for FB and other big tier 1 companies when they started to hire remotely was that it was not actually easier to hire re…

> FB and other big tier 1 companies when they started to hire remotely

All of the big tier 1 companies have serious strings attached for remote work. I've interviewed at several in the last year or two, and they all advertised remote work but also had weird requirements like "must be within 150 miles of an office" and "for certain positions" and "based on seniority."

Perhaps the reason they are struggling to hire remote employees is linked to the fact that they have poor remote culture AND dubious support for remote employees in the future.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#239

Post by JaumeGreen »

rngname22 wrote: post #37
bearjaws wrote: post #16

I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my last big-co job the leadership just kept waiting for 'covid to be over' and not improving our remote work culture. Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. My company is fully remote, we embraced the GitLab model…

Have you considered that those of your view and those espousing that remote is more difficult might have different personalities, levels of need of social interaction, or lifestyles? Have you considered that your company is self-selecting for those who flourish in remote, but that those whose personalities differ are self-selecting for working in an office environment? It's OK for there to not be a one size fits all…

> Have you considered that those of your view and those espousing that remote is more difficult might have different personalities, levels of need of social interaction, or lifestyles?

Yes and no.

There's the people personalities that affect the end result, but sometimes the company is the one setting hurdles that make everything hard.

"There's no free interaction, like at the coffee machine." but don't offer spaces (or time) for people to relax online and/or connect.

"You don't have the immediate help of others that are around you." others that can distract you sometimes, and meanwhile you want to even deduct the bathroom break's time from remote workers.

"I need some socialization." do your time, then find another outlet of socialization.

Some companies are not embracing remote working. Some might have valid reasons (most of the staff is local and we want the ones that could remote to have heavy interaction) or non-valid ones (I'm the boss and I want to see everyone at the office). Of course, for these companies, remote will be hard. They are making it so.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#240

Post by xxxxyxxyxxyxyx »

dogman144 wrote: post #203
andrewingram wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. During my somewhat passive job search, I've only been considering companies that have an office local to me (i.e. Central London). I've been working remotely since the start of the pandemic, and I simply don't like it. Sure, I don't miss having to commute or offices with bad noise pollution controls, but I miss everything else. Most of all, I miss being in town at the end of the day and being able to pop to th…

The thing is you’re asking everyone else in the office to come in and experience all the negative externalities (commute, health, family) just so you can have an easy way to get out and about after work. That doesn’t seem fair to me.

I don't think OP is. They know how they feels and they're betting others feel the same. Employees wanting to work in an office isn't the same thing as employers forcing people to.
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