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Remote startups will win the war for top talent

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Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#201

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

icare_1er wrote: post #72
bearjaws wrote: post #16

I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my last big-co job the leadership just kept waiting for 'covid to be over' and not improving our remote work culture. Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. My company is fully remote, we embraced the GitLab model…

Have you made good friends amongst your colleagues in your remote company, during the remote-work era ? All the trustworthy people i know from work were people i socialized with in person, at the office, around coffe-breaks, post-work drinks, etc. I don't see something similar happening over Zoom meetings and my guess is that 95% of people are like me in that regards. Now, this may not be a big deal over the short-te…

It is possible that I come from a different generation. I was talking on various chats since I was a teen. Physical interaction was a complement and not a mutually exclusive state. And I still keep up with buddies, who live farther than I am willing to go, because internet allows for like minds to not be limited by geography alone.

I started a new job recently and results are mixed. One person I now chat with daily including weekends; some I only interact with the day I spend in office and that is ok too.

We are not all the same. We should not have pretend we are.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#202

Post by BlargMcLarg »

skwirl wrote: post #186
ghettoCoder wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout my career it's been my experience that the type of people you describe are never the top performers, and seldom average performers. The ones craving social interactions often are just looking for distractions (like spending too long at the water cooler chatting) cause either they hate their job, hate the work, can't do the actual work or view work (exchange of labour/time for money) as a predominantly soci…

"It only takes me 4 hours to complete my work" is a sign that you are a ticket drone and not an engineer with agency. This by definition means you are not a top performer. You also seem toxic to boot.

Most people aren't paid based on performance. The only difference between GPs behavior and the average company's mentality? The company making fat profits off of anyone willing to bust their hump for a pittance is nowhere near as condemned as an employee doing the equivalent.

Make performance scale better and the problem stops. There aren't enough jobs willing to do so.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#203

Post by dogman144 »

andrewingram wrote: post #75
rngname22 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that those of your view and those espousing that remote is more difficult might have different personalities, levels of need of social interaction, or lifestyles? Have you considered that your company is self-selecting for those who flourish in remote, but that those whose personalities differ are self-selecting for working in an office environment? It's OK for there to not be a one size fits all…

Right. During my somewhat passive job search, I've only been considering companies that have an office local to me (i.e. Central London). I've been working remotely since the start of the pandemic, and I simply don't like it. Sure, I don't miss having to commute or offices with bad noise pollution controls, but I miss everything else. Most of all, I miss being in town at the end of the day and being able to pop to th…

The thing is you’re asking everyone else in the office to come in and experience all the negative externalities (commute, health, family) just so you can have an easy way to get out and about after work. That doesn’t seem fair to me.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#204

Post by Victerius »

rngname22 wrote: post #37
bearjaws wrote: post #16

I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my last big-co job the leadership just kept waiting for 'covid to be over' and not improving our remote work culture. Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. My company is fully remote, we embraced the GitLab model…

Have you considered that those of your view and those espousing that remote is more difficult might have different personalities, levels of need of social interaction, or lifestyles? Have you considered that your company is self-selecting for those who flourish in remote, but that those whose personalities differ are self-selecting for working in an office environment? It's OK for there to not be a one size fits all…

Introverts have had to suffer work environments made for extroverts for too long.

As an introvert, I welcome the reversal. Deal with it.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#205

Post by vitno »

enlyth wrote: post #168
andrewingram wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. During my somewhat passive job search, I've only been considering companies that have an office local to me (i.e. Central London). I've been working remotely since the start of the pandemic, and I simply don't like it. Sure, I don't miss having to commute or offices with bad noise pollution controls, but I miss everything else. Most of all, I miss being in town at the end of the day and being able to pop to th…

But the fact that you don't go out is because you don't put any effort into it. I work remotely from Kent, we also have an office in Central London but I made the effort to make local friends with whom I go out all the time, even week nights. I prefer this to spending £40 for the train to then drink £8 pints in overfilled London pubs while standing outside and shouting over each other. I actually don't want to spend…

I go out several times a week now and have a friend group outside of work too. That's a different experience than what the GP is talking about.

My friends don't share my work context, nor do I want to have them hear about it endlessly. Getting a drink with friendly coworkers is a good way to have a conversation with that shared context.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#206

Post by stackbutterflow »

TrackerFF wrote: post #154
mooreds wrote: post #31

The $1M question in my mind is: Will wages in, say, Lagos or Buenos Aires rise to SF/NYC levels? Or will the reverse happen? Economics says that it depends on the value of the labor, but cost of living matters too (or at least, has in the past within say, the USA). I think this essay https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala... shows evidence that says the answer is "yes", that we'll see a weird fr…

I don't see why they would need to do that. If they open up the doors to that market, the supply greatly outnumbers the demand. You will have equally qualified candidates do the same job for WAY less. If you pay a top programmer in the Philippines, say $45k/year, that's 10x more than the average dev. salary in Philippines. It would be like offering $1M in salary to someone in the US. You could pick and choose between…

$45k in the Philippines is not even close to $1M in the US. There's a fallacy to consider that CoL increases linearly. At best it's a fixed offset of $XXk. A few thousands more in rent, a few hundreds more in food, and that's basically it. Real estate is crazy in most capital of the world. Consumer products have a fixed price worldwide, and it's often cheaper in the US, imagine that!

Also third world country savings pretty much limit your retirement options to third world countries. You aren't going to retire in the South of France on a third world salary.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#207

Post by jkukul »

dfadsadsf wrote: post #152
jkukul wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can still be a lot cheaper to hire good enough talent remotely. If you're an average company in California you can hire good enough, remote talent 2-3 times cheaper remotely than if you had to hire locally. Just compare avg developer salaries in US vs Europe. "Slightly above average" developers in Europe can do the same job twice as cheap.

If you are average startup in California you should absolutely not hire devs in Europe unless you are ready to pay time zone cost. You will have literally 30min/day that’s inconvenient for everyone to meet (8:30AM in SF/5:30PM in Berlin). Good luck making Europeans meet after 6pm or Californians before 8AM)

I hear you. In this case why even have an HQ in California? Why not become fully remote and hire from a range of compatible timezones?

I'm just saying that such a fully remote company could hire "average talent" 2-3 times cheaper than its counterpart headquartered in an expensive area. That's clearly a competitive advantage.

I'm just saying that being remote also gives an edge for hiring average talent, not only top talent.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#208

Post by slothtrop »

danwee wrote: post #86
icedchai wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communications and collaboration is very important. However, "socializing" through Slack is simply just not the same as going out to lunch with a coworker, for example. Permanent remote work has a very detached feel to it, at least for me.

I don't get this. If you have a coworker that enjoy having lunch with you... what's stopping you both doing so? I mean, even if you both work from home, you could still schedule a lunch together in the city, right? If you both live in different cities, well, I guess before COVID you weren't having lunch together that frequently. 100% remote doesn't dictate how (or with who) you eat lunch.

Even if you lived in the same city, you'd have to waste time commuting from respective neighborhoods to some halfway point, which could easily be 30 min off your lunch hour.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#209

Post by nocman »

KerrAvon wrote: post #71
dgs_sgd wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you replicate water cooler talk in a fully remote environment? Do people do work while tuned in to a meeting where anyone can drop in and talk to them?

If I want to talk about what happened on Johnny Carson last night I get in my DeLorean and rev it up to 88 mph. WTF have we become.

I understand that some people don't see the value in face-to-face interaction with coworkers -- and I say this as someone who has worked in most scenarios (long-term remote, long-term full-time office, and partial remote). It obviously has more value for some than it does others. I actually prefer full-time remote, but I understand why some people don't like it.

For some people, face-to-face makes it easier for them to get to know co-workers and develop a solid working relationship with them. Also, those face-to-face interactions often result in benefits for the company, as you often do still end up talking about things related to work, and valuable ideas can be exchanged that would not otherwise have been. Even if you don't talk about work things, knowing your co-workers well can be a benefit to the company. Obviously there are cases where you don't want to know an abrasive person well, so it varies.

Your post sounds like you are saying in-office work is obsolete due to it being an "old-fashioned idea" (unless I am reading you wrong). If that is the case, I would caution against the possibility thinking newer is always better, because it clearly isn't always. Again, as I said, I prefer remote work, but I also understand why others don't. The same work model is not best for everyone in the world.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#210

Post by jasode »

danwee wrote: post #86
icedchai wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communications and collaboration is very important. However, "socializing" through Slack is simply just not the same as going out to lunch with a coworker, for example. Permanent remote work has a very detached feel to it, at least for me.

I don't get this. If you have a coworker that enjoy having lunch with you... what's stopping you both doing so? I mean, even if you both work from home, you could still schedule a lunch together in the city, right? If you both live in different cities, well, I guess before COVID you weren't having lunch together that frequently. 100% remote doesn't dictate how (or with who) you eat lunch.

>I don't get this. If you have a coworker that enjoy having lunch with you... what's stopping you both doing so? I mean, even if you both work from home, you could still schedule a lunch together in the city, right?

I don't like the office and work 100% remote but I remember collaboration scenarios that were easier and more natural in the office. Example...

- coworker and I discuss something at the cubicle or meeting room. Maybe use the whiteboard. It's now about noon so we agree to grab lunch at the cafeteria.

- continue discussion while walking toward the cafeteria

- continue at lunch table and/or walk back to desks

No coordination or invites on Zoom. Continued discussion in-real-life just flows while we're multitasking (i.e. getting some food) -- because we're both physically present.

So two remote workers getting in the car to meet for lunch isn't the same.

But at the moment, I'm not working on anything that requires that intense level of in-person collaboration described above -- so I'd rather remain working 100% at home.

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