The messages that survived civilisation's collapse • Hacker News Board

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#41

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #33

Related: How do we warn future civilizations about the danger of our nuclear waste? This has been studied and I always found it interesting: How to build a nuclear warning for 10,000 years’ time https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200731-how-to-build-a-n...

I find those things mostly FUD.

In 10,000 years most the the really dangerous nuclear waste would have decayed. In addition, nuclear waste is a local problem. It won’t magically spread to a large area.

Cadmium, lead, arsenic would probably all be more dangerous than 10,000 year old nuclear waste.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#42

Post by pdonis » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 3:12 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #33

Related: How do we warn future civilizations about the danger of our nuclear waste? This has been studied and I always found it interesting: How to build a nuclear warning for 10,000 years’ time https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200731-how-to-build-a-n...

> How to build a nuclear warning for 10,000 years’ time

You don't need to, because long before that it will have become economical to reprocess the "waste" (much of which is not "waste" at all, it contains usable fuel), and what is left over after that is only dangerous for a much shorter time.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#43

Post by GnarfGnarf » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 3:21 PM UTC

I developed a process of printing/embossing on heavy-gauge aluminum foil with dot matrix printers (sans ribbon). The metal can be coiled into a stainless steel, sealed cylinder (a canoptic) and inserted in a deceased's coffin or cremation ashes urn.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#44

Post by BitwiseFool » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #33

Related: How do we warn future civilizations about the danger of our nuclear waste? This has been studied and I always found it interesting: How to build a nuclear warning for 10,000 years’ time https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200731-how-to-build-a-n...

I genuinely believe the people working on this problem are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of trying to make the waste repository into something highly visible, or mystical, they should instead choose a remote and inhospitable location where attempting to access the repository is economically nonviable for any future civilization.

Assuming civilization collapses or regress to pre-industrial levels where the concept of radiation is lost, any future group trying to extract this mythical energy source would have to first discover the location of something buried so deep underground, and then have to develop the logistics to try and access it with manpower. If the repository is placed in the middle of a desert, the challenge of providing water to the workers would be substantial. If they placed it in Antarctica, simply getting there and keeping the workers from freezing to death would be so monumentally expensive that it would bankrupt any civilization attempting to do so. Even if industrialized capacity does return, it would still be economically monumental to try and get to the waste repository. There is also a decent chance that a future civilization with said capacity would rediscover the concept and dangers of radiation.

When I talk about expense, I also like to highlight this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Menkaure Here is a project to dismantle a pyramid that was canceled because of how expensive it was and because of how little of a return on investment the endeavor appeared to be.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#45

Post by Aachen » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 3:41 PM UTC

ralferoo wrote: post #30

coldpie wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an excellent short story from the 50s, "Omnilingual" by H. Beam Piper, that explores deciphering a literally alien language. It is mercifully in the public domain because it was written before copyright became infinite in the 1970s. You can read it here: https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/19445 I would be interested to read the book you're talking about, if you have the title! (Your math example reminds me a bit o…

Sounds to me like one of the Three Body Problem trilogy by Liu Cixin... It's been a while, but maybe that's in Death's End.

Correct. I didn't mention it earlier for minor spoilers but :shrug:

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#46

Post by Aachen » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 3:50 PM UTC

namaria wrote: post #31

Aachen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reading a book, fictional but using a lot of real-world concepts, where they send messages to aliens at first in a self-encoding scheme or something (it's been a while since they needed it, I might misremember the name). I figured this can be real by starting like 1 | 2 || 3 ||| 1+2=3 1+1=2 And building up the language further from there. Draw triangles and label the sides for Pythagoras theorem, repeat a couple…

Or, you know, we just accept that just as humanity had a beginning it will also have an end. Our species, and the current civilization iteration, are most likely completely inconsequential and nothing more than a blip over the history of the universe. We are all going to die eventually, our civilization will fade into nothing and all our thoughts and knowledge will be forgotten forever. So what? It's kinda relieving…

The civilization that doesn't want to survive indefinitely, will indeed die out sooner or later. Whether we're one of those, only time will tell. It's not really a choice or vanity thing; wanting to survive is innate because otherwise we'd already be beaten by those who want it more badly.

I don't want to presume anything unnecessarily based on a simple comment, but if

> It's kinda relieving [that we'll all die and be forgotten] to be honest.

is your true opinion, you should know that people care that you're doing okay. I don't know what the best website is to list for suicide prevention unfortunately but, truly, if you're feeling down as a general state of being, there is no shame in seeking help to become happier!

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#47

Post by zyx321 » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

chihuahua wrote: post #34

GoldenRacer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The space container idea could make for a really interesting book plot. It starts in modern day where they send the capsule up. Then skips forward several hundred years to society collapsing. Then skip forward a few hundred more to see how the myth of knowledge falling from the sky is being passed down. Then it keeps skipping ahead to see how the myth evolves. By the end you just have some super cryptic prophecy like…

They open the capsule, and find that it contains nothing but a complete transcript of the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial.

You say that as a joke, but it would say a lot about contemporary American culture.

Just think about the gender roles on display, a women attacks her husband and gloats that society will side with her. Not to mention the meta-layer, the celebrity worship that would compel someone to preserve this particular document of all things.

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#48

Post by timemct » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

musingsole wrote: post #15

andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I love the fictional idea that I have that some billionaire will create multiple underground caverns around the world in geologically stable places, each containing the knowledge of the world - engraved onto aluminum plates. A vast cavern of tunnels and chambers and catacombs built only to preserve the worlds knowledge. I imagine in 10,000 years some future explorers making their way into such a cavern and finding al…

That is surprisingly close to some plot points of the Mistborn Trilogy from Brandon Sanderson: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistborn

Whenever I read something about leaving messages for future peoples, my mind drifts back to this Mistborn quote, "I write these words in steel, for anything not set in metal cannot be trusted."

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#49

Post by smm11 » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

In my mind's eye, these old societies reached a point in time and just went "poof."

But they didn't. There had to be a point when digging into a stone slab became something else, right?

Re: The messages that survived civilisation's collapse

#50

Post by jhbadger » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

chihuahua wrote: post #34

GoldenRacer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The space container idea could make for a really interesting book plot. It starts in modern day where they send the capsule up. Then skips forward several hundred years to society collapsing. Then skip forward a few hundred more to see how the myth of knowledge falling from the sky is being passed down. Then it keeps skipping ahead to see how the myth evolves. By the end you just have some super cryptic prophecy like…

They open the capsule, and find that it contains nothing but a complete transcript of the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial.

That's a joke, but real time capsules often aren't as interesting as they could be because the makers of them put things that they think are important (like a portrait of Teddy Roosevelt if he was President of the US at the time) rather than details of what their daily lives were like which they didn't think of including.