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Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

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Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as there's older-style currency in circulation, a forger only has replicate those bills and not the new hotness... currency only tends to last a few years in active circulation (at most) but I'd assume that many people will still accept a bill from a style printed 10 or 20 years ago.

Generally when there is a major change to a currency (such as the move to polymer banknotes [an awesome Australian invention] in Australia 15 years ago) the old style bills only remain in circulation for a short period, perhaps a year or so. Within a couple of years, the old style notes become so exceptionally rare in everyday transactions that the presence of one raises eyebrows, and is inspected carefully. While ou…

Less than that if there's a major disruption that casts doubt on the legitimacy of more than 5% of the money supply.

The classic case was the huge Northern Bank robbery in Belfast, Northern Ireland in 2004 -- the thieves stole around 7% of all the Northern Bank banknotes in circulation (currency in NI and Scotland is issued by banks that possess a license to print money, not by a nationalized institution like the Federal Reserve). It was cheaper for the bank to reissue the entire currency and cancel the old banknotes than to trouser the loss, so within 4 months the stolen notes were worthless except as toilet paper:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Bank_robbery

Once there's a noticeable proportion of forged coinage or banknotes in circulation public confidence in the currency drops like a stone. At that point, the only option is to recall and replace.

The reason this hasn't happened in the USA is because there are so damn many dollar bills in circulation -- around $829Bn as of 2007. The cost of recalling and reissuing that little lot would be distinctly non-trivial ...

http://www.ny.frb.org/aboutthefed/fedpoint/fed01.html

For the classic currency-catastrophe-caused-by-forgery, you need to read up on the Portuguese banking crisis of 1925, one of the biggest currency frauds in history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alves_Reis

Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#92
post #72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that the police care if you are guilty or not. They don't. The quality metric that police work towards is not finding the actual perpetrator, it is finding someone who can be convicted, or, even better, strongarmed into confessing and/or accepting a plea bargain. As a (mostly) law-abiding citizen myself I wish it were otherwise. But it isn't. See e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Seriously, this kind of conspiracy theory "fuck the pigs man" stuff doesn't belong here. Reddit is that-a-way.

I visited that link just to see and found that it was posted as an HN article a while back. Your characterization is completely wrong. In that video, a lawyer explains how a person's words can be used against them by the police even if that person is innocent. In fact, innocent people have the most to lose if they come under police suspicion.

Please note that I do not hate cops by any means. In fact, all of the ones I have known have been great. But I've never taken a ride in the wrong side of a police car, either. Perhaps you should read this: http://www.innocenceproject.org/fix/Priority-Issues.php

Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#93
Another surprising fact: most digital copiers have a hard drive and they usually aren't wiped when removed from service.

So everything you copied at the office or at FedEx Office is available even after you leave:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/19/eveningnews/main64...

Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make sure you destroy the copier too. :) http://digitaljournal.com/article/291894

At the UPS location near me they make a point of informing you that the memory is cleared automatically. They seem to be aware of this.

A local Fedex Office was completely unaware of this as of 5 weeks ago.

Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#95
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're a math literate audience. It's not snide to suggest your opinions have no statistical weight.

Snideness is about HOW you say something, not WHAT you say. "What is the statistical significance of a YouTube video?" is a snide comment completely independent of the question of whether or not a YouTube video actually has statistical significance (whatever that could possibly mean). BTW, your claimed math literacy is not much in evidence here. Of course opinions have no "statistical weight" (whatever that could pos…

I shall largely ignore your feigned obtuseness (despite claiming not to know what things could possibly mean, you do seem to get the gist quite well) and get to the relevant section. As an aside, I note that I'll do my best to eradicate any trace of vagueness which the rhetorically inclined like yourself enjoy seizing upon—but that's most usually an unattainable goal.

> Are these data points statistically significant? I have no idea. I haven't done the math. But 1) neither have you and 2) the burden of proof is not on me.

Forgive me for not showing my work. Contrary to your claims that I offered zero data points, I did mention that there are over three quarters of a million law enforcement officers in the US. That would require a randomly selected sample in the several hundreds to determine with any degree of accuracy the character of the population.

You will likely counter that you're not arguing about the character of the population, in fact, you just wrote:

> I am only arguing that it is not unreasonable to be wary of law enforcement.

I must assume you're retracting your earlier statements, then. The ones that started with, "You assume that the police care if you are guilty or not. They don't." and continue on for several more sentences that speak to the character of the population as a whole, notably including an alleged desire to convict anyone regardless of guilt and strongarm confessions.

My point with the above is that if that were an informed opinion based upon data the holder would need to see a sampling of several hundred randomly selected officer/citizen interactions and see the majority of them end in a disregard for the rule of law, courtesy, etc. To my knowledge, that doesn't exist. Partially for difficulties I mentioned originally: nonuniformity of the population, selection bias in accounts, etc.

I shall perform an additional back of the envelope calculation. The Uniform Crime Report for 2010 shows over 13 million arrests that year. Even considering the total number of arrests appears to be declining year over year lately, I can assume relatively safely that in recent years (8-15 roughly) there have been over 100 million arrests. That is a large number of interactions between police and the citizenry.

While I don't have a number for convictions, I will assume it is also rather large. Wikipedia lists over 7 million people under correctional supervision, so that's at least a floor. Do I claim that the false conviction rate is 280/7 million? No, but still (and especially considering that 7 million is likely to be an exceptionally low estimate) my intuition tells me that a random sampling of convictions would find the vast majority to be not wrongfully convicted through law enforcement malevolence.

Your fear and anger toward the general population of law enforcement are not supported by the data. Note that that does not discredit the emotions themselves—they're worthwhile and valid. I even feel them in cases of police abuse, such as Troy Davis and, for instance, the unwarranted pepper spraying of the UC Davis students. I would only caution you against letting those emotions override your reason and thereby jumping to conclusions that the data does not support.

> If someone wants to dispute that, the burden is on them to show that law enforcement is trustworthy.

There's nothing wrong with the opinion that the burden of proof should fall on someone other than one's self. However, I might add that in practice the burden falls on the contrarian. And when one's opinion is against one of the established pillars of society—for better or worse, with no judgment implied—that person is nearly by definition the contrarian.

—EDIT: And just for fun, from a quick Google trying to get better numbers, I'll point you to a real study on the topic: http://www.amazon.com/Convicted-but-Innocent-Wrongful-Convic...

A description of it (http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/ronhuff.htm) describes the arrived at number of wrongful convictions to be around 0.5%. More that half of those were caused by eyewitness misidentifications, leaving less than half to be caused by police malfeasance. The authors indicate that this is probably low, but: even doubled or tripled or quintupled, it seems that the data indicates the vast majority of law enforcement are not conspiring to convict everyone and anyone for a crime.

Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#96
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snideness is about HOW you say something, not WHAT you say. "What is the statistical significance of a YouTube video?" is a snide comment completely independent of the question of whether or not a YouTube video actually has statistical significance (whatever that could possibly mean). BTW, your claimed math literacy is not much in evidence here. Of course opinions have no "statistical weight" (whatever that could pos…

I shall largely ignore your feigned obtuseness (despite claiming not to know what things could possibly mean, you do seem to get the gist quite well) and get to the relevant section. As an aside, I note that I'll do my best to eradicate any trace of vagueness which the rhetorically inclined like yourself enjoy seizing upon—but that's most usually an unattainable goal. > Are these data points statistically significant…

> I must assume you're retracting your earlier statements, then

No. The reason it is reasonable to be wary of law enforcement is because the police don't care if you're guilty. Let me be more precise about what I mean by that. It may well be that most individual police officers really do care if you're innocent. But on a systemic level they do not care. They are trained not to care. Their job (they are told) is not to determine guilt or innocence. That (they are told) is the prosecutor's job. (And the prosecutors usually pass the buck to the jury.) The police are not rewarded for letting innocent people go, they are rewarded for making arrests on probable cause. (And prosecutors are not rewarded for letting innocent people go either, they are rewarded for securing convictions.)

I did not mean to cast aspersions on individual law enforcement officers. I'm sure most of them are fine upstanding people. They work hard. They put their lives on the line. They deal with the scumbags of the world so the rest of us don't have to. I respect them and I'm grateful that they are there.

But the police (and prosecutors) work within a system that actively discourages them from thinking about whether you are actually innocent (except insofar as your actual innocence might prevent them from convicting you) and encourages them to think instead only in terms of whether they can collect enough evidence to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in the mind of a jury, or to present to you a sufficiently credible threat of being able to convince a jury so that you'll accept a plea bargain. Your actual guilt is (and by their training ought to be) irrelevant to them.

BTW, there's a defensible argument that the system ought to be this way, which is that determining actual guilt or innocence is really, really hard, and individuals are easily swayed by emotions and other irrational factors (in both directions BTW) and this system is designed so that no one individual's irrationality can affect the outcome too much. Flawed as it is, it is arguable that it's the best we can do given human nature.

Postscript (since I just saw your edit): a 0.5% false conviction rate is very high. There are about 8 million convicts in the U.S. At 0.5%, that would be 40,000 wrongly convicted. That's about 500 years worth of lightning strike casualties.

> the vast majority of law enforcement are not conspiring to convict everyone and anyone for a crime

Clearly. But a conspiracy is not the only way to produce bad outcomes.

Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#97
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shall largely ignore your feigned obtuseness (despite claiming not to know what things could possibly mean, you do seem to get the gist quite well) and get to the relevant section. As an aside, I note that I'll do my best to eradicate any trace of vagueness which the rhetorically inclined like yourself enjoy seizing upon—but that's most usually an unattainable goal. > Are these data points statistically significant…

> I must assume you're retracting your earlier statements, then No. The reason it is reasonable to be wary of law enforcement is because the police don't care if you're guilty. Let me be more precise about what I mean by that. It may well be that most individual police officers really do care if you're innocent. But on a systemic level they do not care. They are trained not to care. Their job (they are told) is not t…

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Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I say serial number is second because in a criminal investigation phorensics can also get a "fingerprint" of the printer by tracking imperfections in the way it's printed." I know they used to be able to do that with typewriters, but can they do it with printers as well? I would suspect the imperfections of being too chaotic, or at least easy enough to change by changing the cartridge.

I think it was a Purdue group that documented fingerprinting techniques on scanners and printers. Seems that stepper motors have fairly unique characteristics among models and even individual devices (though, with less accuracy).

It's too late to edit my post, but I located the group responsible for this research:

http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~prints

Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#99
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth would anyone bother forging Canadian currency? Just ribbing on ya :p It is true, there are other preventative measures, but any one measure can be beaten. It's like computer security- any computer can be hacked, it's just a game of making it hard enough to hack that it is not worth it, or takes too long.

As a Canadian I can't stand your attempt at humour (sarcasm++). The Canadian mint actually produces a lot of coinage for other countries, is one of the most advanced in new techs, etc. They tend to sell out all of their collection coins, especially the large gold ones (including a 1kg coin). The game of making it hard enough/expensive enough to have it not worthwhile is the goal of every currency. The new 100$ bill d…

Interestingly the new polymer notes are made (or licensed) from Australia, who has had the notes since 1994, and make polymer notes for all the countries using plastic money (there are about 5 at the moment, including Vietnam and New Zealand).

Of course Australians invented the plastic notes so they could go surfing with their wallets.

Re: Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark

#100
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shall largely ignore your feigned obtuseness (despite claiming not to know what things could possibly mean, you do seem to get the gist quite well) and get to the relevant section. As an aside, I note that I'll do my best to eradicate any trace of vagueness which the rhetorically inclined like yourself enjoy seizing upon—but that's most usually an unattainable goal. > Are these data points statistically significant…

> I must assume you're retracting your earlier statements, then No. The reason it is reasonable to be wary of law enforcement is because the police don't care if you're guilty. Let me be more precise about what I mean by that. It may well be that most individual police officers really do care if you're innocent. But on a systemic level they do not care. They are trained not to care. Their job (they are told) is not t…

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