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Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

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Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they do not see how it is affecting them I'm an adult who understands tracking tech and in particular Google's level of tracking quite well (I used to work on AdWords), and I'm one of these people -- tracking doesn't seem to negatively impact my quality of life at all but it keeps the many free services I value greatly running. Visual or audio representations of the amount of data they're collecting are hardly an ar…

> tracking doesn't seem to negatively impact my quality of life at all but it keeps the many free services I value greatly running. Your data is not worthless, and generally I consider data harvesting harmful because of the nation-state subpoenas it enables. If I attend a protest for abortion rights, and my geo data is bound to that event and then I seek an abortion in another state, ive now created a wonderful finge…

Your complaint is with the government, not Google. The FBI could just as easily setup a StingRay [1] and capture all cell information. The only protection against that is robust digital civil rights legislation protecting Americans from governmental over reach, not lampooning big tech companies for having data. It's not like Google is willing to just shovel data at anyone who asks nicely, they will actively fight the government on nominally lawful requests it thinks are unreasonable/won't hold up to further legal scrutiny [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/08/18/google-...

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#182
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already did. People vote with their feet and attention, and people continue to flock to free services powered by targeted ads, systematically out competing services that had other models. If you don't like these services, don't use them; they don't have subpoena power. However, you might find the other options to be lacking, because they have inferior business models that do not allow them to compete on product…

Not all cards were on the table back then when. The general public and perhaps even Google and such themselves didn't really know what they were getting into or where this was headed - at least not today's scale, ubiquitousness, or invasiveness. Hence I would argue that this contract or trade of sorts was not a conscious choice. By the way, for what its worth, I really do appreciate all the time and effort you are sp…

People continue to flock to new, free, targeted ads powered platforms. Look at the enormous growth of TikTok in the US; it has exploded well after the discussion on targeted advertising entered the American zeitgeist (Cambridge Analytica happened in 2018). In light of this, I don't think you can argue that Americans would have chosen something different if they knew more about targeted ads -- they are still, to this day, choosing to join free targeted ad platforms because they like using apps with that business model even when the app is effectively controlled by a foreign power.

I appreciate your kind words. I think people tend to be pretty myopic about targeted ads ("I don't like them/find them creepy") and fail to reason about all the positive things they are getting because of them, and as a consequence they fail to suggest alternatives that are actually better for the general population.

I think it's sad, because a huge amount of good for humanity has come out of Google search and other Google products being free to access while generating enough revenue to truly innovate for 20+ years. It didn't have to be this way, and one can easily imagine a world where Google was paywalled behind institution licenses, limiting its access to only powerful companies and wealthy universities. That world would be so much worse for all of us, and it was avoided because Google found the ads business model. People are now attacking that model but aren't suggesting truly viable alternatives (Google's biz dev is hard at work trying to crack this nut as well).

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google making ad auctions more efficient and "state surveillance" aren't the same thing. Did you legitimately not know this or are you being intellectually dishonest in your argumentation?

Google making ad auctions more efficient becomes state surveillance the instant a subpoena arrives at their door. You might believe you are safe from a subpoena because you haven't done anything wrong, but you would be wrong about that: * Things like geofence warrants are used to surveil people who are merely within a given radius of a crime. * Subpoenas don't have to be for criminal cases, they can also be civil or…

Copy and paste from elsewhere because it's the same talking point over and over: big tech is not the government, and your complaint is with the government. The FBI could just as easily setup a StingRay network [1] and capture all cell information. The only protection against that is robust digital civil rights legislation protecting Americans from governmental over reach, not lampooning big tech companies for having data. It's not like Google is willing to just shovel data at anyone who asks nicely, they will actively fight the government on nominally lawful requests it thinks are unreasonable/won't hold up to further legal scrutiny [2].

If you're going to go after someone, at least go after the right people.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/08/18/google-...

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#184
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of AV companies bootstrapped their maps off of OpenStreetMaps -- it's great anything is free, but they kind of suck. The "cost" of a company using info about me to run more efficient ad auctions is totally worth the benefit of having highly accurate maps with up to date business info with stuff like hours and direct links to their website/contact info.

> The "cost" of a company using info about me to run more efficient ad auctions is totally worth the benefit of having highly accurate maps with up to date business info with stuff like hours and direct links to their website/contact info. This is a perfect example of the "subjective statement that applies on a case-by-case basis" that I was referring to.

There's a free market of platforms without subpoena power, and people time and time again choose the free platforms powered by ads. I'm in the overwhelming majority with my statement when you look at people's revealed preferences.

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#185

A common explanation I get from people with poor digital hygiene is that they do not see how it is affecting them. Making the imperceptible perceptible is a great concept for more innovations. I have sent the kids in my house logs for their devices from the DNS blocker I have running on our network, but it was too much for them to digest. Perhaps I should work on a visualization tool of all the data that shows impact…

As an Android user, https://history.google.com used to be pretty frightening.

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At an object level, "not having XYZ actions occur from the government" is a problem with the government, not any tech company. You almost certainly live in a western style democracy, and so you possess mechanisms to modify the government behavior (if you don't, I suggest moving); it's absurd to complain about tech companies when you're actually upset with the government. This does doubly so when the primary threat to…

The problem with your argument is that the same mechanisms that are used by government for broad-reaching surveillance are also used for legitimate government purposes. These are things like subpoenas and warrants, which are impossible to eliminate completely while keeping a functional court system. You could try to argue that we should make sure that these are narrow in scope (that's already the rule despite the cur…

I don't see why you can't add guardrails to things like subpoenas -- it's not like they are allowed to engage in aggressive subpoenaing of non digital info without a due process procedure, just make the digital one more rigorous. The issue lies in the flawed execution of the current legal system, so fix that instead of taking a hatchet to big tech.

>Google makes most of its money on ads that don't really need aggressive tracking, like ads for toasters when you search "toaster" or ads for other car brands when you search "Ford SUV." Arguably, the tracking might hurt their system since they try to produce fully personalized results for you.

A very non trivial subset of their revenue is personalized ads, and I promise you they work pretty well; if you don't believe me I recommend taking a job on the ads team. This is a huge revenue hit, for a company that's consistently putting that money into product innovations as well as societally important moonshot projects, all in order to side step the issue of your concerns with the American justice system's subpoena process.

>it would be very likely that Comcast would bundle a Google subscription into your cable plan the way they do for entertainment products.

If you're a SWE you probably have coworkers raised in India. Ask them how likely they would have been able to afford such a subscription system and by extension how much worse their life would be if they didn't have access to Google. I would bet a substantial fraction of them would still be in India and not software engineers.

>This kind of cognitive distortion is traditionally addressed with laws: social security, healthcare mandates

We have healthcare mandates and social security because if a person has no money and is out in the street or gets health care and then can't pay, it's society's problem. If you get nailed by the government for doing something illegal due to invasive subpoenas, it's not only not society's problem, depending on your opinions on the role of the state this is a feature not a bug.

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they do not see how it is affecting them I'm an adult who understands tracking tech and in particular Google's level of tracking quite well (I used to work on AdWords), and I'm one of these people -- tracking doesn't seem to negatively impact my quality of life at all but it keeps the many free services I value greatly running. Visual or audio representations of the amount of data they're collecting are hardly an ar…

This a bit orthogonal so I put it in a separate comment, but let me be even more aggressive and do a bit of offense: I've read a lot of the "pro privacy/anti tracking" arguments over the years, and (outside of a few exceptions) they almost always hinge upon some aesthetic dislike for companies having this information, rather than having any material justification for why it's harmful. But attacking ads and ad trackin…

> even a nominal fee of a few dollars a month would preclude most of the third world from accessing the best index of humanity's collective knowledge

So you seem to be referring to Google (annual revenue ~$250 billion.)

But Wikipedia (annual revenue $160 million) also qualifies.

Also The Library of Congress (annual budget $800 million.)

Another interesting data point is the USPS $77 billion annual revenue.

So there are definitely proven business models that provide services basically at-cost and without all the negative externalities. And Wikipedia's budget is so small that even relatively poor countries could fund it with less than 1/5th of their education budget. (e.g. Uganda's education budget in 2020 was roughly $700 million.) And that would let them pay globally competitive salaries to hire software engineers to build indexes that are actually optimized first and foremost for knowledge that's focused on their culture rather than the US.

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if you know you know" isn't an argument. This is just empty rhetoric -- dogmatically asserting that tracking ads damage society and that I'm being controlled by it is a pretty strong claim, and a claim that requires evidence to support it. If this is the typical quality of your privacy argumentation then it should be no surprise that your children don't buy your arguments.

You're not going to win this "fight" on HN, I've been here for years. People here are convinced that every piece of data being collected is a moral evil. They'll vaguely wave at things like DNS logs or server IP logs, and always assume that everything is always feeding huge tracking machines at big companies. They'll mix up tracking used for logs with tracking used for ads with tracking used to improve the product. T…

I think it is a combination of shell shock reaction and lack of data literacy. Some companies have abused their sysadmin privileges, and people now have much less trust for other big entities. I also work in the data business albeit currently in operational/industrial data. We can abuse robots all we want as they have no rights. Cyborgs on the other hand are much more complicated. I understand the scale and types of data impacts.

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your argument is that the same mechanisms that are used by government for broad-reaching surveillance are also used for legitimate government purposes. These are things like subpoenas and warrants, which are impossible to eliminate completely while keeping a functional court system. You could try to argue that we should make sure that these are narrow in scope (that's already the rule despite the cur…

I don't see why you can't add guardrails to things like subpoenas -- it's not like they are allowed to engage in aggressive subpoenaing of non digital info without a due process procedure, just make the digital one more rigorous. The issue lies in the flawed execution of the current legal system, so fix that instead of taking a hatchet to big tech. >Google makes most of its money on ads that don't really need aggress…

There are already guardrails in place on subpoenas. They are about as strong as they can be. That doesn't stop overreach, it doesn't stop corruption, and it doesn't stop people from being people when trying to get them and when granting them. The best way to stop abuses of a system is to remove the potential for abuse. Do you want to remove subpoena power from courts around the world? I don't - you kind of need it to prevent people from destroying and hiding evidence. The only thing that is left is helping people understand the harm that comes to their lives from giving intimate data up, and regulating its collection.

Also, privacy legislation does not need to "take a hatchet to big tech." It will just reduce profits for a few months while the ads team figures out how to work around it. I promise you they will do a really great job figuring it out. Some of the smartest people I know work on those ad models, and they will still be able to use things like location, web browser, and search query to find relevant ads.

Most of the people who can't afford a subscription fee (who, by the way, are not your Indian colleagues, who largely have come from rich or middle class families and can afford a subscription fee) are not worth serving ads to anyway. They don't have money to spend on stuff that you are advertising. I see no problem with offering a free tier with limited search capabilities, and a version with a subscription fee. Lots of SaaS does this. This is basically what Google does now with the ads: the high-value users (young rich people like the HN crowd) subsidize everyone else by having high ad impression prices.

By the way, I did work at G. I'm not convinced that personalization actually helps the bottom line at all for Amazon and Google search when you balance against the reduction in CTR due to latency (personalization prevents caching), and the added compute and engineering cost of personalization (since personalization prevents caching, you need a ton of additional servers and a lot of extra brains thinking about how to make them work). The idea of a search engine that produces personalized and highly specific search results feels like a local maximum to me in light of the costs and the research around CTR and web UX.

Unfortunately, that local maximum is currently so heavily entrenched in the market that it can strangle any competition. Google got its market share initially by having really fast search results that had the words in your query, and having no ads (and then later, a few clearly marked ads). This was in competition to web search providers that tried to offer personalized search results and highly relevant ads. Since then, they have become the thing that they proved was an inferior product, and they keep out upstart competitors through market power.

Re: Audible feedback on just how much your browsing feeds into Google

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The visualization is useful for those who already understand how it harms them and society. If someone likes to be watched and controlled, this type of visualization is not of much value.

"if you know you know" isn't an argument. This is just empty rhetoric -- dogmatically asserting that tracking ads damage society and that I'm being controlled by it is a pretty strong claim, and a claim that requires evidence to support it. If this is the typical quality of your privacy argumentation then it should be no surprise that your children don't buy your arguments.

I wasn't making an argument about privacy with that statement. I said that if certain knowledge is valuable to you, then visualizations of that data would be valuable. Some people like to be watched and controlled similarly to how some people want to be ruled by rulers. I accept that as human nature. If you are watched by someone in a greater power position who wants power over you, do you think this gives them more control or power over you or not?
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