Workplace surveillance is coming for you • Hacker News Board

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#131

Post by donatj » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:33 PM UTC

shakezula wrote: post #124

sudden_dystopia wrote: post #84

Quit reading at “large stage capitalism”. Such a bs term. This is not capitalism, this is techno corporate fascism. That is what is failing and causing misery. And the more we gaslight capitalism, the further down the totalitarian path we are going to go.

We arrived at this place on the line directly from capitalism though. This is a failure of capitalism at least, and a direct incentive of it at worst. You can’t just say it’s not capitalism when it’s the exact consequence of capitalism just because it resulted in something you don’t like. The “totalitarian path” is the one that capitalism laid bare before your feet.

We arrived at this place on the line directly from the formation of the sun. You don't talk about "late stage solar energy". This isn't any more the suns fault than it it is capitalisms fault; it's just a popular scapegoat.

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#132

Post by Joel_Mckay » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:34 PM UTC

A company is like a tiny country... Despotism requires an authoritarian regime maintain sustained intelligence campaigns against its own citizens. Primarily, this is necessitated as internal propaganda or perceived surface culture is eventually indistinguishable from reality. Thus, the authoritarians must grip tighter to maintain information asymmetry over an imaginary threat of their own creation, as eventually these folks undermine the credibility of leadership.

Third party software that supports such schemes though arms-length lack of accountability, simply lower the cost of increasing the granularity of intelligence collection and control. However, it doesn't solve the foundational problems of organizations dooming themselves with unsustainable policies, or the statistical nonsense business intelligence companies produce.

My advice, "vote with your feet" and keep seeking to a better life. ;)

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#133

Post by Kalium » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #112

Kalium wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time, I worked for a shop that did auto insurance. This involves handling a lot of fairly sensitive data about people and datasets about a lot of people, for reasons that boil down to it being incredibly useful data for actuarial purposes. Bossware, or working machine monitoring software, endpoint monitoring, or whatever turned out to be a key part of making it possible for our data scientists to function…

I think there is certainly a place for audit trails etc, but it again comes back to how that data is used. An access log is an access log, but it's a difference if you analyze it to find people looking at data they have no reason to look at, or if you analyze it to track who spends how long on their toilet break. And a lot of what's offered by current "bossware" clearly falls in the latter category.

I agree. My goal here is to set out that there are important uses for monitoring. Uses important enough that it would be irresponsible to discard the notion entirely.

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#134

Post by TremendousJudge » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:39 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #88

sudden_dystopia wrote: post #84

Quit reading at “large stage capitalism”. Such a bs term. This is not capitalism, this is techno corporate fascism. That is what is failing and causing misery. And the more we gaslight capitalism, the further down the totalitarian path we are going to go.

Exactly, the proposed solutions are always more state power and more state intervention which will simply lead to even more regulatory capture and even stronger entrenched corporate interests.

Do you believe that worker unionization is more state power and intervention?

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#135

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:39 PM UTC

helloworld97 wrote: post #51

nopehnnope wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the unintended consequence of anti discrimination laws (and other laws, like those protecting unions, that defeat at-will employment). Easiest way to fire shitty employees is to document a bunch of technical rule violations. That will create a rock solid paper trail that will stand up in court. Otherwise, they will claim some kind of discrimination and it’s your word about their performance against theirs cal…

That's some pretzel logic there. They can't arbitrarily implement/enforce rules without first disclosing them, and it looks bad in a court of peers if they start doing this haphazardly. I would actually say it's easier for them to get away with this in an at-will environment without these rules. "Position was eliminated" works pretty well (in the US).

The goal is to keep it out of court or some other tribunal.

Without a contract, discrimination law is the sole course of action to fight an adverse employer situation.

Eliminating a position leaves a company open for problems, particularly if it isn’t true. Much easier to determine that you didn’t charge vacation time correctly or violated a series of minor/moderate rules.

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#136

Post by alexb_ » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:41 PM UTC

fezfight wrote: post #114

giantg2 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some strict time-keeping requirements for bathroom use when it comes to certain contracts, like government ones. It wasn't too bad, but I forget the specifics. It was like it had to be less than 5 minutes, or you use your 15 minute breaks or lunch for anything longer.

I know some people with IBS for who that would amount to discrimination.

Where there's a dumb requirement, there's a waiver.

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#137

Post by toss1 » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:42 PM UTC

>>Curve Reaches Apogee

Just because it is on an upward trajectory and higher than ever before does not mean that it is at apogee — it could just as well continue climbing to greater heights, which in this case seems rather likely.

The repeated theme of measuring things like continuous keystrokes that are actually counterproductive to accomplishing key tasks is the essence of bad management. Extended through an organization to far, it could literally kill it. Getting the key info might be tricky, but it seems worthwhile to create a stock fund of companies NOT using worker spyware and shorting companies who use it extensively.

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#138

Post by TremendousJudge » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:44 PM UTC

kastagg wrote: post #96

swayvil wrote: post #69

Here's an interesting pattern. You eat a banana. It's delicious and nutritious. Cool. You read about a fellow who ate a banana. Ah, such a fond reference. You read about your banana-research employees. Taste, nutrition and fond references are furthest from your mind. You only care about your sales numbers. Abstraction=progressive numbness.

There's no value in thinking all day about how bananas are delicious. Before you can eat the banana, it has to be produced and shipped. That process does not even involve thinking that bananas are delicious, so that kind of thinking isn't abstracted in the production process, it's simply irrelevant.

I disagree. If you ignore the actual value your product provides to the final consumer "this banana is delicious", you'll come up with solutions that diminish that value. The only reason why blending whole bananas (peel and all), and sending that slop in an unrefrigerated shipping container isn't even considered as an option is an understanding of what the banana-buyers want.

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#139

Post by highwaylights » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:46 PM UTC

fezfight wrote: post #114

giantg2 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some strict time-keeping requirements for bathroom use when it comes to certain contracts, like government ones. It wasn't too bad, but I forget the specifics. It was like it had to be less than 5 minutes, or you use your 15 minute breaks or lunch for anything longer.

I know some people with IBS for who that would amount to discrimination.

Exactly. Suddenly your imaginary worry about someone's 10 minutes of lost productivity is a class action lawsuit under accessibility legislation that will probably burn you for 1000x that cost or more and leave your reputation, ironically, in the toilet.

Re: Workplace surveillance is coming for you

#140

Post by donatj » Mon, Aug 22, 2022, 3:47 PM UTC

The authors own point seemingly being that this will negatively affect companies bottom lines in the long run in the name of chasing stats seems to undermine the point of this being "late stage capitalism".

If this does actually negatively affect bottom lines, it's bad business, end of story. Capitalism seeks to optimize output and if this is truly failing to do so, it's not a capitalist pursuit.