The entire student loan debt issue has been framed badly, because hardly anyone understands the real problem: "As of March 2021, 54% of borrowers with outstanding education debt owed less than $20,000; 45% of the outstanding federal education loan debt was held by the 10% of borrowers owing $80,000 or more." https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/trends-college-p... Forgiving $10K across the board is dumb and mi…
What's the moral or economic case for forgiving debt of people who borrowed to go to undergrad and then borrowed further to get a fairly useless grad degree like an MFA?
59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
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Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#92Didn't they forgive a massive amount of bank debt during the 2008 financial crisis? And that didn't cause any worrisome inflation. Forgive these kids loans, who were just trying to go to college to learn and gain job skills to compete in the world and are now debt slaves.
>Forgive these kids loans, who were just trying to go to college to learn and gain job skills to compete in the world and are now debt slaves. Nah. Those kids spent 4 years partying and treating adult life like an extension of high school with no consequences and free rent. I graduated highschool in ‘08, and I can clearly remember wondering how in the hell all of my friends on social media were living the lives they…
Trapping students into non-bankruptable student loans is pure debt slavery.
Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#93The entire student loan debt issue has been framed badly, because hardly anyone understands the real problem: "As of March 2021, 54% of borrowers with outstanding education debt owed less than $20,000; 45% of the outstanding federal education loan debt was held by the 10% of borrowers owing $80,000 or more." https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/trends-college-p... Forgiving $10K across the board is dumb and mi…
What's the moral or economic case for forgiving debt of people who borrowed to go to undergrad and then borrowed further to get a fairly useless grad degree like an MFA?
Most college kids going into school have no idea what they're going to be doing in the future. There aren't really standard systems in place to help guide them. Even a basic lifetime ROI analysis by major isn't something you encounter organically through the school system, and whether you're lucky enough to have done that sort of evaluation before choosing a path just totally depends on the circumstances of your upbringing or internet browsing.
Our higher-ed system was inherited from Old World elites, and there's probably a case to be made that it's not as relevant to the modern workforce or society anymore, but that's not a very fair thing to pin on any individual degree or student.
Morally, if we've decided that the humanities have any intrinsic worth at all, it stands to reason that we should be feeding the people who practice the humanities. And unless we want them all to be slave-artists, maybe even pay them a livable wage. Maybe the moral failing here is our lack of funding for the arts, or our lack of appropriate valuation at least. Especially in a create-one, share-unlimited-times digital economy of production.
Economically, what societal value is there in an indentured class of artists not making art? Does society really get more value out of painters flipping burgers while their loan sharks muck around in spreadsheets making more money?
Personally... as a tax-paying dev, I would be happy to pay a little more tax if it means people who chose a different path in life got to eat, sleep under a solid roof, and create beautiful things. I don't want to live in a ruthless, hypercapitalist society where human worth is reduced to dollars and bankers determine our destinies.
Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't sound intuitive to me. Who are these people with $80k balances of debt? How did that happen? Are they maybe correlated with higher earnings e.g. med students? Would they benefit the most from aid in terms of actually improving society? They might not actually be the "poorest" even if they have the lowest net wealth, if they have high incomes. More surprising to me: > As of March 2021, 23% of the $1.59 tr…
> Who are these people with $80k balances of debt? A lot of them are graduate students. > Off the cuff, this group seems like the least important to pay off Why do you say that? We're now seeing senior citizens get their Social Security garnished for student loan payments! Do you want to see people with a lifetime of student loan debt?
You can find a person for every situation. How many people on this earth have a nickle up their ass this very instant? Also, incentives matter.
Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#95Didn't they forgive a massive amount of bank debt during the 2008 financial crisis? And that didn't cause any worrisome inflation. Forgive these kids loans, who were just trying to go to college to learn and gain job skills to compete in the world and are now debt slaves.
2008 was on the verge of a massive deflationary spiral. Bank debt forgiveness likely did cause inflation, but we needed it then! We are now in a period of high inflation already, so we would very much not like more.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2021/07/06/...
Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#96I thought European universities were bloated, but they look like lean running operations compared to American ones: high quality food, parks, gardens, recreational facilities, sports facilities including personal trainers, courts, etc. It's more like a vacation resort and I think students often end up treating it like one.
Back in my day, the food at the university cafeteria was pig slop and we liked it!
Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#97Setting aside the issues of ethics and fairness, it's worth noting that debt jubilee-type proposals are not a sign of a robust economy. They are a sign of an economy locked in a debt spiral.
Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't sound intuitive to me. Who are these people with $80k balances of debt? How did that happen? Are they maybe correlated with higher earnings e.g. med students? Would they benefit the most from aid in terms of actually improving society? They might not actually be the "poorest" even if they have the lowest net wealth, if they have high incomes. More surprising to me: > As of March 2021, 23% of the $1.59 tr…
> Who are these people with $80k balances of debt? A lot of them are graduate students. > Off the cuff, this group seems like the least important to pay off Why do you say that? We're now seeing senior citizens get their Social Security garnished for student loan payments! Do you want to see people with a lifetime of student loan debt?
shrug. If you're old and not working anymore and have debts you can sell your shit to pay off the debts. If you don't have shit to sell then you're poor. I do agree that debts shouldn't be able to take your income below a certain livable level, but there's some level between liveable and full social security payments, then sure, let people who lived a life of debt drop to the lower bound. There is basically no upside to subsidizing these folks.
There's quite a lot of benefit to freeing young people from debt at the beginning so that they can build up wealth.
*I'm aware a 50 year old person is often not "old and not working anymore"
Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#99From something special and extraordinary, university education became mundane, expected, requirement. Something you just have to do. Never mind if it's going to give you anything.
In all seriousness. How many graduates do you think society needs? Do we really need people to spend 4 years in school, just so they can sit behind desk and fill forms all day? I'm sorry I don't think we do. And this isn't a take from US btw, this is from Europe. And yes, I am mostly talking about liberal arts.
At this point, the only thing the system works as is a buffer to keep youth from workforce.
Re: 59% of Americans worry student loan forgiveness will make inflation worse
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
So the most important follow-up question to all of this is when did you do it? College costs have risen exponentially faster than just about everything other than healthcare, especially over the last 10-20 years. I graduated almost 15 years ago, and I am starting to think that anyone who graduated more than a few years ago simply cannot comprehend how bad it is to have to pay for school now. Average annual tuition at…
Finished my MS last year, finished my BS in 2018. So there's that, and you don't need to go to a fancy pants top of the line university. Plenty of ways to make things more affordable, like go to a community college for your associates then transfer to a full university. Maybe I do have an impressive lack of understanding of a dozen or so topics, but I grew up as the oldest of over 5 children to a single mother who wa…