Clip control on the Apple GPU
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Clip control on the Apple GPU
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Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#2Optimistic that OpenGL 2.1 will be available by the end of the year on Asahi - well that is news. It's only 2.1, but that's enough (as stated) for a web browser, desktop acceleration, and old games.
Also RIP all the countless pessimistic "engineers" here and elsewhere saying we'd be waiting for years more for any graphics acceleration.
Edit: It is true though that AAA Gaming will wait: "Please temper your expectations: even with hardware documentation, an optimized Vulkan driver stack (with enough features to layer OpenGL 4.6 with Zink) requires over many years of full time work. At least for now, nobody is working on this driver full time. Reverse-engineering slows the process considerably. We won’t be playing AAA games any time soon."
Still, even if that be the case, accelerated desktop is an accelerated desktop, much sooner than many expected.
Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#3> Here’s a little secret: there are two graphics APIs called “Metal”. There’s the Metal you know, a limited API that Apple documents for App Store developers, an API that lacks useful features supported by OpenGL and Vulkan.
> And there’s the Metal that Apple uses themselves, an internal API adding back features that Apple doesn’t want you using.
Apple does stuff like this so much and gets so little flak for it.
I use macOS since it seems like the least bad option of you want a Unix but also don't want to spend a lot of time on system management, but this is a real turn-off.
Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#4Amazing that this works because of the herculean effort of just a handful of people.
Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#5> Here’s a little secret: there are two graphics APIs called “Metal”. There’s the Metal you know, a limited API that Apple documents for App Store developers, an API that lacks useful features supported by OpenGL and Vulkan. > And there’s the Metal that Apple uses themselves, an internal API adding back features that Apple doesn’t want you using. Apple does stuff like this so much and gets so little flak for it. I us…
> Apple does stuff like this so much and gets so little flak for it.
To be fair, Windows has a ludicrous amount of undocumented APIs for internal affairs as well, and you can get deep into the weeds very quickly, just ask the WINE Developers who have to reverse-engineer the havoc. There is no OS without Private APIs, but Windows is arguably the worst with more Private or Undocumented APIs than Apple.
This actually bears parallels to Metal. Until DirectX 12, Windows had no official way to get low-level. Vulkan and OpenGL are only 3rd-party supported, not Microsoft-supported, Microsoft officially only supports DirectX. If you want Vulkan/OpenGL, that's on your GPU vendor. If you wanted low-level until 12, you may have found yourself pulling some undocumented shenanigans. Apple hasn't gotten to their DirectX 12 yet, but they'll get there eventually.
As for why they are Private, there could be many reasons, not least of which that (in this case) Apple has a very complicated Display Controller design and is frequently changing those internal methods, which would break compatibility if third-party applications used them. Just ask Asahi about how the DCP changed considerably from 11.x to 13.x.
Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#6Optimistic that OpenGL 2.1 will be available by the end of the year on Asahi - well that is news. It's only 2.1, but that's enough (as stated) for a web browser, desktop acceleration, and old games. Also RIP all the countless pessimistic "engineers" here and elsewhere saying we'd be waiting for years more for any graphics acceleration. Edit: It is true though that AAA Gaming will wait: "Please temper your expectation…
It's pretty insane that OpenGL 2.1 is even functional on a GPU this strange, but remember; this is still an unfinished, hacky implementation (the author's own concession). Plus, you're going to be stuck on x11 until any serious GPU drivers get written, which in many people's opinion is just as bad as no hardware acceleration at all. No MacOS-like trackpad gestures either, you'll be waiting for Wayland support to get that too. It'll definitely be a boon for web browsing though, so I won't deny that. What I'm really curious about is older WINE titles with Box86, if you could get DOS titles like Diablo 2 running smoothly, it could probably replace my Switch as a portable emulation machine...
Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#7> Here’s a little secret: there are two graphics APIs called “Metal”. There’s the Metal you know, a limited API that Apple documents for App Store developers, an API that lacks useful features supported by OpenGL and Vulkan. > And there’s the Metal that Apple uses themselves, an internal API adding back features that Apple doesn’t want you using. Apple does stuff like this so much and gets so little flak for it. I us…
> Apple does stuff like this so much and gets so little flak for it. To be fair, Windows has a ludicrous amount of undocumented APIs for internal affairs as well, and you can get deep into the weeds very quickly, just ask the WINE Developers who have to reverse-engineer the havoc. There is no OS without Private APIs, but Windows is arguably the worst with more Private or Undocumented APIs than Apple. This actually be…
Apple has a very complicated Display Controller design
Can anyone in the know give more information here? Why would Apple want to do this? What could they be doing that's so complicated in the display controller?
Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Apple does stuff like this so much and gets so little flak for it. To be fair, Windows has a ludicrous amount of undocumented APIs for internal affairs as well, and you can get deep into the weeds very quickly, just ask the WINE Developers who have to reverse-engineer the havoc. There is no OS without Private APIs, but Windows is arguably the worst with more Private or Undocumented APIs than Apple. This actually be…
Apple has a very complicated Display Controller design Can anyone in the know give more information here? Why would Apple want to do this? What could they be doing that's so complicated in the display controller?
https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1549672494210113536
and
https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1415360411260493826?lang...
and
https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1526104383519350785
As to why? Well, if it ain't broke don't fix it from iPhone, but it is still a bit of a mystery.
In a nutshell from those threads:
1. Apple's DCP silicon layout is actually massive, explaining the 1 external display limit
2. Apple implements half the DCP firmware on the main CPU and the other half on the coprocessor with RPC calls, which is hilariously complicated.
3. Apple's DCP firmware is versioned, with a different version for every macOS release. This is also why Asahi Linux currently uses a "macOS 12.3" shim, so they can focus on the macOS 12.3 DCP firmware in the driver, which will probably not work with the macOS 12.4+ DCP firmware or the macOS 12.2- firmware.
I can totally see why Apple doesn't want people using their low-level Metal implementation that deals with the mess yet.
Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#9Optimistic that OpenGL 2.1 will be available by the end of the year on Asahi - well that is news. It's only 2.1, but that's enough (as stated) for a web browser, desktop acceleration, and old games. Also RIP all the countless pessimistic "engineers" here and elsewhere saying we'd be waiting for years more for any graphics acceleration. Edit: It is true though that AAA Gaming will wait: "Please temper your expectation…
It's pretty insane that OpenGL 2.1 is even functional on a GPU this strange, but remember; this is still an unfinished, hacky implementation (the author's own concession). Plus, you're going to be stuck on x11 until any serious GPU drivers get written, which in many people's opinion is just as bad as no hardware acceleration at all. No MacOS-like trackpad gestures either, you'll be waiting for Wayland support to get…
I'm a bit confused as to why X11/wayland would be a huge issue here? The Mesa docs do say X11-only, but they're referring to running the driver on macOS (hence the XQuartz reference), where Wayland basically doesn't exist.
Re: Clip control on the Apple GPU
#10Optimistic that OpenGL 2.1 will be available by the end of the year on Asahi - well that is news. It's only 2.1, but that's enough (as stated) for a web browser, desktop acceleration, and old games. Also RIP all the countless pessimistic "engineers" here and elsewhere saying we'd be waiting for years more for any graphics acceleration. Edit: It is true though that AAA Gaming will wait: "Please temper your expectation…
It's pretty insane that OpenGL 2.1 is even functional on a GPU this strange, but remember; this is still an unfinished, hacky implementation (the author's own concession). Plus, you're going to be stuck on x11 until any serious GPU drivers get written, which in many people's opinion is just as bad as no hardware acceleration at all. No MacOS-like trackpad gestures either, you'll be waiting for Wayland support to get…
> pretty insane that OpenGL 2.1 is even functional on a GPU this strange,
Well... you were one of the most vocal critics saying it wouldn't happen anytime soon.
> unfinished, hacky implementation (the author's own concession)
Still more stable than Intel's official Arc drivers, so who defines "hacky"? ;)
> Plus, you're going to be stuck on x11 until any serious GPU drivers get written
Only because it is running on macOS, which supports X11 but not Wayland. On Linux, Wayland or X11 will both work, no problem.
> No MacOS-like trackpad gestures either, you'll be waiting for Wayland support to get that too
Again, Wayland will work on Day 1, it's just a limitation of running the driver on macOS until the kernel support is ready. When it is on Linux, Wayland will be a full-go.