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Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

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271–280 of 329 posts

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats a crazy level of risk assessment for an average user. > how does your password manager help you if your email password gets leaked? You still need my TOTP codes in my case at least, which conveniently are stored in my password manager. Is it perfectly secure? No, of course it's not, but frankly my risk profile isn't worrying about a targeted attack on me and my password manager, it's worrying about leaked share…

> Thats a crazy level of risk assessment for an average user. It really isn't. Think about it for a second: how hard is it to spot phishing attempts when they are sent to an email address you know for a fact you're not using with a service? And how vulnerable are you to phishing if your special-purpose email address that you only use for one specific purpose receives zero spam? To claim that the most basic and easy i…

> To claim that the most basic and easy internet security precautions are at a "crazy level",

Basic and easy internet precautions are not "register and run a domain and host your mail yourself". Basic and easy precautions are don't reuse passwords/use a password manager, use a reputable email provider, enable 2fa with totp, and dont click links from your emails

> first you need to somehow believe that no one is targeted by these schemes.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion at all. The assumption is that _everyone_ is targeted by those schemes.

> But somehow there's a whole international industry that thrives on stuff like Western Union transfers. Why is that?

Because they're low risk high reward, easy to set up, and you only need to make one mistake.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#272
post #5

A general rule of thumb I've built up over the years: resist the temptation to innovate around login! Look at the most commonly used flows that are not obviously terrible and try to implement as close a match to them as possible. When I've tried to innovate around login in the past I've found that any clever ideas I come up with inevitably run into road blocks pretty quickly. Here's one example: why have a separate l…

I once built exactly what the author proposed and it worked but confused users a lot because they’d have never experienced it before.

There was a lot more leak in the signup funnel as people would just leave once asked to do something besides giving their (usually auto filled) info.

So I tend to believe trying to generally match the flow they are accustomed to is the best way, even if you think it’s not the best way.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#273
post #236
post #209

Guys,it's 2022! You shouldn't be requires to give out your email right along for verifying anything. Please allow the old dog to die. Site generated communication should be entirely optional, and even then why not support signal,whatsapp, slack,discord,etc... (as a library of course). Fight spam? Use captchas. What I found out is email registration is very difficult without a phone number which in turn requires a gov…

People forget their passwords. If you do more than sell stuff one time and the user really need to get their account back, you need a way to send them a reset link or code. No way around it.

Only if you or the user refuse to use federated auth. And even then do you not have 2FA? Then your 2FA is reduced to 1FA by email?

"There is no way around it" is such b.s., yes there is, pretend email does not exist, how would you do it? I think you skipped over parts of my post, there is a myriad of messaging applications if you insist control over some external account is the way to go. But really, the ideal way to do this would be have two sets of registration time challenges set. You can go with secret questions but also picture/emoji combinations, pins,patterns as the firsr piece and a second would either be a payment card for $0.01 charge or have them print one-time codes at registration time (second challenge skipped if second-factor auth is good).

"I refuse to change" is what you are saying, you can think about this longer than a minute and come up with more and better ways than what I just mentioned. Not only is email based password reser unneccesary, it is dangerous and lazy.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#274

Besides the security and usability problems others mentioned, I also highly doubt it will improve confirmation conversions. One thing that helped us improve confirmations -- we A/B tested it and confirmation rates increased ~8%: send a 4-digit confirmation code rather than just a link. It's easier and more familiar on mobile, especially if you see the code on the push notification, so don't even need to open the emai…

>send a 4-digit confirmation code rather than just a link.

The wording is unclear, so I will ask for clarification: Does the improved email contain both a 4-digit code _and_ a link (URL)?

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#275
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It assumes that we all have access to our email all of the time. Which is a fair assumption for 99.99% of the population. But I deliberately keep email off my phone, so I don't look at email on my phone. So yes, I hate 'passwordless login'. I have a password manager, I can do it myself thanks very much.

You could consider setting up a separate email account just for the verification messages and have that on your phone.

can you name even one service that uses login links and allows you to configure an address that is exclusively used for login links and not any other communication?

i'm not talking about unselecting all other types of communication, but rather having the service store 2 different emails for you. one for logging in and one for communication.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#276

Why do we do email verification at all? The only legit and practical reason on most web sites is to be able to restore access if you forgot the password. So just near the password field we can have a "Restore options" section, with email, phone number, etc fields; each having a Test button. If user have entered email address he can use the Test button and receive a confirmation email, with a link. When user clicks th…

Most webapps have a need for transactional messaging of some sort. But even putting that aside you’re missing TOS support. Every TOS is going to have conditions that define scenarios where you need to communicate with users. Including changes to the terms of service ;-). Or for breaches of data, you’ll want/contractually need to communicate that to your users.

So yeah you could build different options for all of these things, and maybe snailmail users of these TOS occasions. But the system of doing this over email is so standardized that the possible friction of one-time setup pails in comparison to the alternatives.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#279
> In both cases, the proof is the same: “email verification” means “the user controls an email address.”

No. In one case the proof is "the user receives E-Mails under this address" and in the other it is "the user can send E-Mails under this address".

The service is generally interested in proving the first. For recovery, service-related notifications and for unsolicited marketing. So all the things mentioned in making the "normal" flow undesirable, are actually exactly what the service owner wants to protect against. If their E-Mails don't get to you because they end up in spam or just get dropped by a misconfigured Mailserver, they can't spam you and you won't be able to use this account for recovery.

I agree that the reverse flow is easier (though TBF, mailto links also require the user to have set them up to work, which not all users have on all their devices). But I don't think that's where the incentives align.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#280
post #142
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right: this would fail for me on my laptop, because I use gmail for email and don't have anything setup such that a mailto: link would compose a new email from my gmail account.

It’s actually quite easy to set this up, if you missed doing so when it asks: https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9308783?hl=en

Thanks for that. I've been dealing with this issue forever (but never even thought to RTFM on the issue).
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