Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg • Hacker News Board

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#151

Post by itsthemmrvax » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

tchalla wrote: post #116

zbdngkhab wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass inoculation with a new type of vaccine that behaved very differently than the science hypothesized is also a very simple explanation. I don't really think anyone here has the ability or expertise to judge which is more fitting. For what it's worth, the fact circulatory issues is mentioned in the article should ring alarm bells for COVID vaccines being a potential cause. We just found out recently the prevalence…

It’s not a “simple” explanation if you take some time to understand how vaccine works. Just because there’s a side effect form vaccine doesn’t mean that the vaccine isn’t the best option. Your thought process is classic example of zero risk bias.

No post body was provided.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#152

Post by klelatti » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

bloqs wrote: post #133

thrown_22 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan... In 1997 the NHS had 1/5th the budget it does today. Do we think that service has improved 5 times in the period? Like universities the NHS has been eaten from the inside by administrators whose sole purpose is to keep doctors from doing actual work. Talk to a nurse and 4/5th of the bullshit they have to deal with is pointless paper work.

This is misprescription - it's the LACK of administrative staff to do that specific paperwork that has caused this. Political microwaving of the whole system to "reduce costs" but keep "front line staff" has meant everyone is doing jobs they arent qualified to do and suck at. The amount of people who think they understand the NHS is interesting, and clearly newspaper driven.

‘Too much management’ has long been a tabloid argument to restrict funding - see the Daily Mail front page yesterday.

There was a TV programme ‘Can Gerry Robinson save the NHS’ fifteen years ago that had some very interesting examples of problems with lack of effective management.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#153

Post by inglor_cz » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

solar-ice wrote: post #106

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> decimate the health system and waste money on sending Refugees to Rwanda. It’s idiotic to prioritise that over the NHS. It all depends how you view the world. For many people, preserving the historical character and demographic of their country is an important issue. It might not be to you, you might consider it stupid, but it is a concern many people have. So much so, they would see illegal arrivals of non histor…

Supporting the party which consistently underfunds a British institution, and sells off parts of it to their mates, in order to protect Britishness. Sums up Tory politics nicely, really.

Not a Brit, but curious.

Looking at the total healthcare expenditure before covid, it consistently hovered around 10 per cent of the total British GDP.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/317708/healthcare-expend...

If this is underfunded for you, how many per cent would be funded enough?

Accidentally, the EU average is about 10 per cent, with 12 member countries scoring less than 7.5 per cent of GDP.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

From what I see, the British values seem absolutely normal to me, and healthcare results (life expectancy, 5-year survival of cancers) are just fine, especially given how fat British people have become.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#154

Post by benj111 » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:37 PM UTC

origin_path wrote: post #143

solar-ice wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed; the reason people exonerate it is that the Tories have been threatening the population with a dismantling and privatisation of the NHS for over a decade now, and that's not what anyone wants. People want the NHS to work, to be funded and managed appropriately. A primary reason it doesn't is the Tories crippling it.

That's what lots of people want - I can assure you, I know quite a few - but the British left attacks anyone so viciously and nastily that they aren't ever going to admit it to anyone seen in the vicinity of a Guardian. The NHS has collapsed since COVID. No, it isn't due to lack of funding, that's a lie. NHS funding has increased massively under the Conservatives who haven't talked about even limited privatisation fo…

Waiting lists are going down. They just cleared the backlog of people waiting 3 years for treatment

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#155

Post by naasking » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #98

ogogmad wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person I'm speaking to claims that the NHS hires too many bureaucrats who are impossible to fire, and who he believes provide the doctors with too much paperwork. He suggests that instead of paying those bureaucrats, the money should go to doctors, nurses and equipment. He claims that the NHS gets about the same amount of money - GDP-wise - as other European countries, while underperforming them. They already hir…

As someone who was embedded in the NHS for a number of years it has many problems, but counterintuitively one of them is actually a lack of paper pushers or at least low level admin and other auxiliary staff. Because governments have constantly demanded the NHS spend less money, but have also been under pressure to preserve numbers of "front line" staff you've ended up with serious shortages of low level admins, medi…

> This means that more and more healthcare workers spend their time doing paperwork or customer service work that could be done by anyone

The obvious solution seems to be reducing the required paperwork rather than hiring more staff to handle the paperwork, and this seems to agree with your experience when you described "unintegrated time recording systems".

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if too much bureaucracy was also partly to blame, because that's what happened here in Canada.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#156

Post by inglor_cz » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

heurisko wrote: post #60

lettergram wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. If this were the true issue, the excess deaths would have been starting at peak Covid hospitalization. In fact the opposite is true… That said, particularly on any bureaucracy- more money doesn’t solve issues. In fact, more money often makes more bureaucracy. Obviously that’s no…

The UK has been spending less on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than comparable European countries, Germany and France. I agree more money doesn't solve the issue, especially as so much money was wasted on Covid testing and private beds that were never used. However in my lifetime the difference in healthcare spending between New Labour and Conservative has been noticeable. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.…

As a counterpoint, this is the same graph, but with the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark and Norway chosen instead of Germany and France.

All nice developed rich northern European countries with reasonable life expectancy and life quality.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS?end=2...

Their difference from the UK is negligible.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#157

Post by selimthegrim » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #123

selimthegrim wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of myocarditis symptoms in young men resolve in 14 days. There are always other mRNA vaccines too.

Yes that does indeed. However myocarditis often indicates heart damage. Which is often long lasting, also the CDC just removed the claims the vaccine only lasts a few days. We don’t know how long that spike protein lasts.

Sorry I meant to type “vaccines other than mRNA ones”.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#158

Post by origin_path » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:42 PM UTC

bhk wrote: post #129

jajahusjsna wrote: post #8

Covid is one aspect of this. Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. - Getting a GP to see you in person is now quite difficult (they want to do everything via phone). - Seeing your GP (depending on your area) can involve a 2-3 week wait and waiting in an hours long phone queue. - When you are referred to hospital for t…

There has been no drop in funding that might account for the recent "soaring excess deaths". Quite the opposite. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-... You speak of massive underfunding, but NHS funding has increased in real terms almost every single year since the 1950s: https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/ "At the moment, UK public health spending is the equivalent of about 7%…

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Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#159

Post by benj111 » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #98

ogogmad wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person I'm speaking to claims that the NHS hires too many bureaucrats who are impossible to fire, and who he believes provide the doctors with too much paperwork. He suggests that instead of paying those bureaucrats, the money should go to doctors, nurses and equipment. He claims that the NHS gets about the same amount of money - GDP-wise - as other European countries, while underperforming them. They already hir…

As someone who was embedded in the NHS for a number of years it has many problems, but counterintuitively one of them is actually a lack of paper pushers or at least low level admin and other auxiliary staff. Because governments have constantly demanded the NHS spend less money, but have also been under pressure to preserve numbers of "front line" staff you've ended up with serious shortages of low level admins, medi…

On the other hand, my ex worked for the NHS. To 'solve' the problem of long wait times after check in. They reduced staff at check-in to bottle neck the in flow of checked in patients.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#160

Post by rleigh » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

jajahusjsna wrote: post #11

scrlk wrote: post #5

Quoted post unavailable.

People were repeatedly told to seek treatment when they needed it and not to be put off from going to A&E. It was a pretty regular topic on the daily press conferences.

Routine investigations, operations and treatments for entire categories of disease were entirely cancelled in many hospitals. In the big one near me, most of the big equipment like CAT scanners and such were turned off and mothballed for well over a year, some more than two years. No investigation or treatment for many conditions during this time.

So I really don't buy the "seek treatment when needed" line. The public was both cajoled intensively into not using the NHS, and the NHS itself shut down a lot of its basic services. Not just reduced. Shut down entirely. For over two years.

I'm friends with one of the radiation safety officers who was responsible for overseeing the shutdown and then the restarting and recommissioning of the equipment. The NHS shut down! What we are seeing now is the consequence of that. And we were expected to both pay for it, and applaud this weekly.

I hope that if there is one outcome from this pandemic, it's that we never allow such a situation to cripple the whole economy and the health service in such a way again. The cost of closing it all down will be many times greater than the cost of the pandemic itself. It should never have been done, and we need to look long and hard at the pressures and the decision-making that led to this.