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Nobody wants to teach anymore

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Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#261

Post by diognesofsinope »

lostcolony wrote: post #234
diognesofsinope wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. For as much as we spend on education, teachers seem to be grossly underpaid - to be getting robbed of their share of the budget. Where does that money go? Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. > 2. It seems that education degrees are seen as easier to achieve than others. Yeah, but cost is the same and cost is what's important. > 4. Many school problems are caused by disrup…

> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Yet another counter counterpoint - there are still companies and government jobs with defined pension plans that pay far more than teachers. Even without those, there are still many, many jobs requiring a comparative amount of education, far fewer hours worked, and pay more even once you subtract maximizing 401k contributions yearly (let a…

Half the reason to be a teacher is because half the job is having fun. Most curricula is set in stone and requirements are nationally standardized (US and Asia). You more or less get summers off (there are conferences and summer school) and there are almost no jobs where you can take ~1.5 months off every year. Teaching is also one of the few steady jobs in rural America.

I feel like most people haven't been in an actual ~5th grade classroom in a long time -- literally half of it is playing games/trying to have fun.

And Youtube, good god has the educational content on Youtube evolved in the last decade.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#262

Post by gshubert17 »

bombcar wrote: post #191
diognesofsinope wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. For as much as we spend on education, teachers seem to be grossly underpaid - to be getting robbed of their share of the budget. Where does that money go? Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. > 2. It seems that education degrees are seen as easier to achieve than others. Yeah, but cost is the same and cost is what's important. > 4. Many school problems are caused by disrup…

I suspect that almost all of the success of private schools can be ascribed to being able to kick students out and not requiring fifty billion dollars in degrees to teach.

I taught computing for 13 years at a public charter high-school. It doesn't charge tuition (it's a public school), but does have a dress code, and a commitment to a curriculum based on E. D. Hirsch's core knowledge program in grade school and on classical, liberal arts great books in high school.

Admission is by lottery if there are more applicants than places, not by cherry-picking applicants. They hire teachers with subject-matter degrees and experience: they have some PhDs and a couple ABDs (all but dissertation). Half-jokingly they said they didn't look to hire people with teaching certificates, but wouldn't hold that against them. I had a master's degree in computer science and worked summers to get another master's.

The school was smaller (maybe 700 total students K-12; the class of 2022 graduated 26), which right there, I think, made for fewer behavior problems. There was a well-thought-out discipline policy which was enforced by the administration and backed up by the board and most parents. After all, parents had made a choice to not go to the regular district schools but enroll in this school instead.

I agree that the odds are much better for school success with smaller sizes, a focused curriculum (whether it's International Baccalaureate, Core Knowledge, STEM, arts, or whatever), highly qualified teachers, and supportive parents.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#263

Post by incone123 »

origin_path wrote: post #213
readingnews wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to quote that very paragraph, as a professor teaching three classes this semester, in addition to my 50 hour a week job as the technical director. I see at my university the outside consultants telling us how and when to teach. But OPs first sentence here seems to ring true a lot on my campus. Your boss, HR, some organization called "student success" which is made up of MBAs that have never taught a class…

In fairness a lot of professors are terrible teachers and don't really care about teaching at all. My own course was full of them. I'm sure they didn't like to hear it though.

My friend is a professor and admits she has no interest in teaching. She is a scientist and counts herself fortunate to have enough research funding that she is rarely expected to lecture.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#264

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

_vdpp wrote: post #98

A few random thoughts: 1. For as much as we spend on education, teachers seem to be grossly underpaid - to be getting robbed of their share of the budget. Where does that money go? 2. It seems that education degrees are seen as easier to achieve than others. 3. Teachers frequently complain about how they are unappreciated, yet children spend _12 years_ in their care. Why do people come up to them and say they hated s…

> Disruptive children are caused by parents who frankly just don’t give a shit.

I was disruptive. I had ADHD. Parents did a fantastic job being present and caring but strict. My brothers and I were in multiple sports leagues.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#265

Post by MarcusGunnz »

lr4444lr wrote: post #211
justin66 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when accounting for benefits and pension That many teacher’s pensions require one to give up social security benefits makes the decision to teach more difficult, I would think, especially for those who are later in their working lives.

> That many teacher’s pensions require one to give up social security benefits Patently untrue unless maybe you work for the Dept of Defense or something. Teachers can collect SS like any other employee.

[flagged]

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#266

Post by rayiner »

analog31 wrote: post #247

The US has always experienced relentless political activism against public education. This creates a climate where teachers, and the institution they work in, are actively hated by a wide swath of the public. This is due in no small part to proponents of religious education. It's true that teachers receive an above-average salary, but that can be both a blessing and a curse. The curse is that your wages are a matter…

The proper socialization of children is always going to generate controversy. Fundamentally, most parents view teachers as public employees hired to teach kids what the community agrees kids should learn. But teachers often see themselves as part of a profession that has an obligation to socialize children in (little-l) liberal values or outright (big-l) Liberal values. Of course this generates backlash.

And it’s not just from “proponents of religious education.” The most recent iteration is often coming from moderate liberals who oppose increasingly progressive teachers unions. Progressive teaching became a flash point in Loudoun County VA, right next to where I grew up. International migration to that region flipped Virginia blue in the earth 2000. A lot of Google employees live there. A great way to get an Indian Biden voter worked up is to tell them “I don’t think parents should be telling schools what they should teach.” https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/578885-education-blunde...

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#268

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

danaris wrote: post #212
aetherson wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People might want to be teachers rather than software engineers because teachers get enormous amounts of time off, have extremely high levels of job security, plus all the usual reasons that not everyone is in the very highest paying profession. Why aren't you a hedge fund manager?

> teachers get enormous amounts of time off Anyone who's actually been or known a teacher knows this is false. During the school year, in the time they're not actively teaching, teachers are - Coaching sports - Overseeing other student extracurricular activities - Making/updating lesson plans - Presiding over detention - Tutoring students who need more 1:1 time - Serving on school committees (especially in larger dis…

I mean, I guess it's all relative. I'm a software engineer at a startup. On average I work about 50-55 hours a week. I get 3 weeks of vacation a year.

I certainly don't deny that teachers spend a lot of time working on their "time off". But that said, I've known more than a few teachers personally, and yes, they still do get enormous amounts of time off. Heck, a bunch of them will even admit it is the biggest perk of teaching (because otherwise there aren't many).

Teachers have plenty of real, valid complaints about the environment of teaching, and more importantly, it's clear with the current teacher shortage that something is really broken. Still, I don't think it wins them any supporters when teachers try to deny that most of them have vastly more time off than other professionals.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#269

Post by lotsofpulp »

treis wrote: post #257
lotsofpulp wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they being compared to typical workers? The question of if teachers are sufficiently paid is answered by asking if current classroom sizes are sufficiently small and staffed by sufficient quality teachers. Whatever price that makes that happen is the appropriate price, regardless of what people in other jobs are earning.

>Why are they being compared to typical workers? Who do you want to compare them to? >The question of if teachers are sufficiently paid is answered by asking if current classroom sizes are sufficiently small and staffed by sufficient quality teachers. Whatever price that makes that happen is the appropriate price, regardless of what people in other jobs are earning Like I said before the solution is to cut the bullsh…

>Who do you want to compare them to?

For the purposes of determining appropriate prices, why is it necessary to compare their price to anyone? Supply and demand determine appropriate pricing.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#270

Post by Apreche »

r3trohack3r wrote: post #176

> Nobody wants to teach Counterpoint: the internet is full of people who want to teach. The first school of YouTube is overflowing with educational content on everything from merge sort to patching dry-wall. A large portion of my social circle hold teaching/mentorship as a career goal. I don't think this is pedantic. When I look around, I see a surplus of people that want to learn and want to teach. What I don't see…

This is the one. If I have to work (i.e.: not just live a life of luxury on the beach) my top pick would be to teach computers to children. So why am I not doing that job today?

1) The barrier to entry to getting that job is very high. I would probably have to go back to school and learn education, and it won't even be free! The barrier to entry for a job in the private sector is low, requiring no special certification. If you can do the job, you can get the job.

2) The teaching job comes with vastly more bureaucracy and bullshit than a private sector job. The thing I actually want to do, teach computers, is actually only a small portion of what the actual job of a teacher entails. That other stuff is absolutely not how I want to spend my brief time living on this planet.

3) Given 1 and 2, the compensation for being a teacher is orders of magnitude lower than just working in the private sector. There's no reward for putting in the extra work and tolerating the hassle.

I have indeed considered on many occasions becoming a teacher at the school of YouTube. I've been a student there longer than I have at any other institution.

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