Coping with Copilot

> Your argument is akin to saying "there's so much theory crammed into Astronomy that students do not get to look through a telescope much"

I doubt, that a computer with its endless possibilities of using it and programming it, is comparable to a telescope. Also I did make note, that CS is not only about computer programming. So I am fully aware of the following:

> CS fundamentally is not about computers. It's about math and the flow of information between theoretical machines. Computers just happen to be a physical implement.

However, this does not mean, that universities should forego teaching about computer programming properly.

The alternative is, that we acknowledge, that first we study CS, but then employers finance year long computer programming classes for new employees, taught by people, who are actually good at this. The kind of people, who have lots of experience with different systems, programming languages, paradigms and teaching in general. That'll be expensive.

> What about moving the responsibility (and financial risk) off students' backs and to the corporations that want to exploit the knowledge gained in a degree through apprenticeship and learning to code through experience?

Yes indeed, that is one alternative.

I am saying, that employers should not expect and of do not expect good good to come out of people, who recently graduated from university and have their BSc or MSc. I don't think we are in disagreement about that point.

However, realistically this might lead to some employers being to much up in the clouds, only ever accepting employees, who were taught elsewhere and students having a really hard time finding _any_ job at all, because no one is willing to expend the resources to teach them. Furthermore, the teaching will probably be very one-sided, gaered towards what that particular employers uses in their tech stack. It is also highly unlikely, that most employers will have teachers, who are really that good, lets say up to Abelson and Sussman standards, if we may wish for something.

I let people use their own computers, own IDEs, own programming language, own testing framework.

A CS degree is worth nothing. A masters is worth even less.

> has anyone here ever looked at a resume with an MSc in CS and said "Yep, I bet this person knows how to write code well"

A Masters in CS doesn't tell me the person knows how to code well, but it does tell me that they are _more likely_ to

- Have had experience with a wider variety of algorithms, data structures, and general coding concepts

- Have written code to perform more complex things

- Written code for someone "outside of a classroom"

Certainly the last two are more directly accomplished by actually being in the workforce. However, an educational environment is a far better source for the first one. Now, I'm not saying having a Masters is necessarily _better_ for a developer but

- Given two developers with no work experience, one with a Masters and one with a Bachelors; I would generally assume the one with the Masters is a better developer.

- Given two developers with a similar amount of work experience, one with a Masters and one with a Bachelors; I would generally assume the one with the Masters is a better developer.

- Given two developers, one with a Masters and no work experience, one with a Bachelors a couple years of work experience; I wouldn't make any assumptions about their skill (they're certainly different, but I wouldn't assume one is a better developer than the other).

The same logic holds true for me when people try to convince me that a degree in CSci offers no benefit at all, and that it's better to just self study and start working. There's nothing you can learn during a degree that _can't_ be learned by self study; but there's a lot of things that are much more likely to be learned in an academic environment.

That's actually really amusing. Thanks for the insight!

Nonsense? If you know what distinguishes these things as nonsense, why didn’t they consult you when compiling these sources? Surely you could have helped them produce value. /s

Seriously though, you clearly need a reality check. SWEBOK is by no means necessary; it’s far from it. Saying it’s a complete waste of time shows that you have poor judgement on the subject. To your earlier point, having someone guide you through the poignant aspects of CMMI 1.3 is exactly the kind of value added by paying a teacher (where you would otherwise have to sift through piles of less valuable material). I only preach out of a sense of trying to help you and the others you have influence over. If you’ve actually worked yourself into a position where you hire people, and you’re not just pretending on the internet, you could do yourself a favor by being a little more open minded. Maybe consider that your original reply has been downvoted on a forum with “hacker” in its name.