Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg • Hacker News Board

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#71

Post by ZeroGravitas » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 12:57 PM UTC

jajahusjsna wrote: post #8

Covid is one aspect of this. Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. - Getting a GP to see you in person is now quite difficult (they want to do everything via phone). - Seeing your GP (depending on your area) can involve a 2-3 week wait and waiting in an hours long phone queue. - When you are referred to hospital for t…

Maybe I'm just a nerd, but this bit:

> Getting a GP to see you in person is now quite difficult (they want to do everything via phone)

Doesn't really strike me as a bad thing in itself.

Once you get past the front line, things get pretty specialist and a general move to Telemedicine is probably a good thing, and is presumably happening all around the world for all sorts of reasons. People even do telesurgery now.

And yeah, in a world where someone is continually lying about something good and useful, you do need to choose your words carefully to not help spread their lies. That's not anyone's fault but the liars though.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#72

Post by retcore » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 12:57 PM UTC

ogogmad wrote: post #38

jajahusjsna wrote: post #8

Covid is one aspect of this. Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. - Getting a GP to see you in person is now quite difficult (they want to do everything via phone). - Seeing your GP (depending on your area) can involve a 2-3 week wait and waiting in an hours long phone queue. - When you are referred to hospital for t…

One person I'm speaking to claims that the NHS hires too many bureaucrats who are impossible to fire, and who he believes provide the doctors with too much paperwork. He suggests that instead of paying those bureaucrats, the money should go to doctors, nurses and equipment. He claims that the NHS gets about the same amount of money - GDP-wise - as other European countries, while underperforming them. They already hir…

This was such a phenomenon in the seventies that by the time Yes Minister was broadcast the joke was a running ironic theme that met with deflated apathy:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=yes+minister+hospital+no+patients&...

(Search link because the results are fascinating, looking at Washington hospitals copying British innovation...)

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#73

Post by open-source-ux » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 12:58 PM UTC

From the article:

> "Prof Robert Dingwall, of Nottingham Trent University, a former government adviser during the pandemic, said...“We are beginning to see the deaths that result from delay and deferment of treatment for other conditions, like cancer and heart disease, and from those associated with poverty and deprivation."

Behind the statistics, here's one person's tragic story:

"A woman with fast-growing stage-four breast cancer says the NHS has let her down, with delays at every stage of her treatment."

'I've been let down - I shouldn't have stage-4 cancer'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-62483323

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#74

Post by kergonath » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:00 PM UTC

eastbound wrote: post #34

rtpg wrote: post #4

Are there still major pandemic restrictions in Britain? Lots of quotes in this piece seem to imply there’s ongoing issues here but everything I see in Europe or the US from abroad seems to heavily imply that people are “back to normal” (at least in terms of movement). The idea here (treatment delays lead to excess deaths) seems ok, but is it really the restrictions? Isn’t it more that hospitals are still extremely fu…

> much simpler explanation: Covid infections increase risk of other health issues. Or even a simpler one: The discouragement from doing sports that was lockdowns and curfews, encouraged asthma, obesity, breathing interior paints too much, couch potating, mental breakdowns, social isolation, lack of parties, lack of pleasure in life, looping on negative thoughts, eating butter and sugars by buttloads, and not being ab…

> Or even a simpler one

That is not simple at all, and really far-fetched. Lockdown and inactivity won’t turn a fit human being into a diabetic obese and kill them in 2 years.

There are much more compelling explanations (again, mis-funding, burn-out, decay due to malice or incompetence, amongst others). The problems were plain to see before COVID. The pandemic just pushed the system closer to the edge.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#75

Post by ZeroGravitas » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:00 PM UTC

ogogmad wrote: post #38

jajahusjsna wrote: post #8

Covid is one aspect of this. Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. - Getting a GP to see you in person is now quite difficult (they want to do everything via phone). - Seeing your GP (depending on your area) can involve a 2-3 week wait and waiting in an hours long phone queue. - When you are referred to hospital for t…

One person I'm speaking to claims that the NHS hires too many bureaucrats who are impossible to fire, and who he believes provide the doctors with too much paperwork. He suggests that instead of paying those bureaucrats, the money should go to doctors, nurses and equipment. He claims that the NHS gets about the same amount of money - GDP-wise - as other European countries, while underperforming them. They already hir…

That sounds like exactly the kind of thing you'd say, if you wanted to destroy a beloved public institution though.

Most people are worried about the UK moving to a US model, not to be more like Norway, Netherlands and Australia and administrative efficiency is something the NHS does well:

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2...

> Conclusion: Four features distinguish top performing countries from the United States: 1) they provide for universal coverage and remove cost barriers; 2) they invest in primary care systems to ensure that high-value services are equitably available in all communities to all people; 3) they reduce administrative burdens that divert time, efforts, and spending from health improvement efforts; and 4) they invest in social services, especially for children and working-age adults.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#76

Post by mirekrusin » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:00 PM UTC

kurthr wrote: post #56

mirekrusin wrote: post #43

What if it's related to vaccination? Do other countries that implemented same the measures see the same pattern? Do other countries which did not implement those measures are free from this problem? Seems like relatively easy questions to answer, no?

Yes, luckily we have a completely controlled economy with no COVID. They only used to most ineffective (thus safe) vaccine! It's called China. Also the chairman has declared that there have been no deaths this year. (except you, if you contradict him)

> They only used to most ineffective (thus safe) vaccine!

There are so many things wrong with this sentence:

- placebo is more ineffective, so to say the most ineffective has been used is an absurd statement

- ineffectiveness doesn't imply safety, cyanide is likely ineffective, yet not safe

- they didn't use one vaccine

etc.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#77

Post by CTDOCodebases » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

eastbound wrote: post #34

rtpg wrote: post #4

Are there still major pandemic restrictions in Britain? Lots of quotes in this piece seem to imply there’s ongoing issues here but everything I see in Europe or the US from abroad seems to heavily imply that people are “back to normal” (at least in terms of movement). The idea here (treatment delays lead to excess deaths) seems ok, but is it really the restrictions? Isn’t it more that hospitals are still extremely fu…

> much simpler explanation: Covid infections increase risk of other health issues. Or even a simpler one: The discouragement from doing sports that was lockdowns and curfews, encouraged asthma, obesity, breathing interior paints too much, couch potating, mental breakdowns, social isolation, lack of parties, lack of pleasure in life, looping on negative thoughts, eating butter and sugars by buttloads, and not being ab…

I think it was a “let’s stop the hospitals from getting severely overloaded now and we will figure out the rest later.” episode.

It’s also worth mentioning that certain fatalities went down as a result of the response.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#78

Post by kergonath » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #59

[flagged]

This bullshit does not resist the most superficial analysis. There were million deaths before vaccines were rolled out and death rates haven’t stopped declining since then. Also, there are plenty of countries to compare to, with similar vaccination rates as the UK.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#79

Post by scrollaway » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

eastbound wrote: post #34

rtpg wrote: post #4

Are there still major pandemic restrictions in Britain? Lots of quotes in this piece seem to imply there’s ongoing issues here but everything I see in Europe or the US from abroad seems to heavily imply that people are “back to normal” (at least in terms of movement). The idea here (treatment delays lead to excess deaths) seems ok, but is it really the restrictions? Isn’t it more that hospitals are still extremely fu…

> much simpler explanation: Covid infections increase risk of other health issues. Or even a simpler one: The discouragement from doing sports that was lockdowns and curfews, encouraged asthma, obesity, breathing interior paints too much, couch potating, mental breakdowns, social isolation, lack of parties, lack of pleasure in life, looping on negative thoughts, eating butter and sugars by buttloads, and not being ab…

This isn’t a “simpler explanation”, no. I’d elaborate but I’m getting the feeling you’re not interested in nuanced debate.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#80

Post by trinovantes » Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #63

verytrivial wrote: post #9

The word "funding" does not appear in this article. The NHS has been systematically underfunded since the Conservative entered power more than a decade ago. The crisis is real, but it is a political choice.

What does "underfunded" mean? The UK has a similar system to Canada. Costs are controlled by controlling the funding. You set a cap to what you'll spend and let the system figure out how best to allocate those funds. It's a big reason why the cost per capita for healthcare is quite low - you simply choose not to spend more. The demand for healthcare spending is almost infinite. You can set it up so everyone get an MR…

You can start by paying doctors/nurses a better wage for the shit they have to put up with for the last 2 years

Our Ontario government capped nurse pay to 1% per year which is effectively a 8% paycut/year given the current inflation