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Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

uk.news.yahoo.com

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Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#61

Post by kergonath »

rob_c wrote: post #35
verytrivial wrote: post #9

The word "funding" does not appear in this article. The NHS has been systematically underfunded since the Conservative entered power more than a decade ago. The crisis is real, but it is a political choice.

But let's ignore the blairite solution to sell the land and get further into debt and refuse to take more money from the populace or detach NHS funding from state pensions...

Two wrongs do not make a right. I’d wager the people upset about the Tories are not by and large enamoured with Tony Blair’s New Labour either.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#63

Post by refurb »

verytrivial wrote: post #9

The word "funding" does not appear in this article. The NHS has been systematically underfunded since the Conservative entered power more than a decade ago. The crisis is real, but it is a political choice.

What does "underfunded" mean?

The UK has a similar system to Canada. Costs are controlled by controlling the funding. You set a cap to what you'll spend and let the system figure out how best to allocate those funds. It's a big reason why the cost per capita for healthcare is quite low - you simply choose not to spend more.

The demand for healthcare spending is almost infinite. You can set it up so everyone get an MRI the same day the doctor orders it. If you cut back and it takes a week for a non-urgent MRI is that a "proper" level of funding? How about waiting one month? Two months?

The truth is, a country needs to decide how much money they are willing to spend on healthcare. Some spend very little, some spend a lot. There is no "fully funded" system, only trade offs.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#64

Post by duxup »

sokoloff wrote: post #6
funstuff007 wrote: post #2

Of course this is real problem, but like most things COVID related the public discourse has been 90% culture war, and 10% search for understanding.

I’ve really been amazed at the lack of curiosity and ability/willingness to hold multiple probability-weighted points of view at once and examine questions like “what would have to be true/false in order for us to commit to X?”, “once we’ve started to do Y, what would be the signals for us to stop doing Y?” I had thought that people were often impatient and disinterested in hard thinking, but the extent of it surpris…

I think one issue, at least from an online experience, is that a multi weighted view just means that you get yelled at by everyone as people seem to look for points of view they don’t like and engage with them from that angle. They will often entirely miss what you agree on, or worse assume any common ground was some ruse to slowly introduce more extreme points of view.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#65

Post by dominotw »

verytrivial wrote: post #9

The word "funding" does not appear in this article. The NHS has been systematically underfunded since the Conservative entered power more than a decade ago. The crisis is real, but it is a political choice.

Is there a mathematical way to deduce that its underfunded. I am wondering how we can tell the difference between poor management vs underfunding.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#66

Post by throwawayacc2 »

jajahusjsna wrote: post #48
thrown_22 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unfortunately without a change in government we’re not going to get those and people are seemingly more concerned about refugees arriving by dinghy than health care. One can be concerned about both. If we ever had a socially conservative and economically progressive government they would stay in power until they died. I mean in the US they literally had to add an amendment to make sure it didn't happen again: https:…

>> One can be concerned about both. I didn’t say that you couldn’t. But by voting for the current day Tory’s you are choosing to decimate the health system and waste money on sending Refugees to Rwanda. It’s idiotic to prioritise that over the NHS.

>> decimate the health system and waste money on sending Refugees to Rwanda. It’s idiotic to prioritise that over the NHS.

It all depends how you view the world. For many people, preserving the historical character and demographic of their country is an important issue. It might not be to you, you might consider it stupid, but it is a concern many people have. So much so, they would see illegal arrivals of non historical descent as a more acute problem. One to be prioritised over what can be argued to be improvements to the existing system.

I myself am one of these people. It is more important to me immigrants be sent to Rwanda than offering additional funding or reforming the NHS.

If my interaction with other people sharing your beliefs ( or more accurate my assumptions about your beliefs ), you believe me to be evil. I do not believe I am and I do not believe you, who think the opposite of me to be evil. I believe you are misguided though and wrong in what your priorities are.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#67

Post by doliveira »

ogogmad wrote: post #38
jajahusjsna wrote: post #8

Covid is one aspect of this. Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. - Getting a GP to see you in person is now quite difficult (they want to do everything via phone). - Seeing your GP (depending on your area) can involve a 2-3 week wait and waiting in an hours long phone queue. - When you are referred to hospital for t…

One person I'm speaking to claims that the NHS hires too many bureaucrats who are impossible to fire, and who he believes provide the doctors with too much paperwork. He suggests that instead of paying those bureaucrats, the money should go to doctors, nurses and equipment. He claims that the NHS gets about the same amount of money - GDP-wise - as other European countries, while underperforming them. They already hir…

These days doctors seem to spend more time doing paperwork than actually working.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#68

Post by trailingComma »

sokoloff wrote: post #6
funstuff007 wrote: post #2

Of course this is real problem, but like most things COVID related the public discourse has been 90% culture war, and 10% search for understanding.

I’ve really been amazed at the lack of curiosity and ability/willingness to hold multiple probability-weighted points of view at once and examine questions like “what would have to be true/false in order for us to commit to X?”, “once we’ve started to do Y, what would be the signals for us to stop doing Y?” I had thought that people were often impatient and disinterested in hard thinking, but the extent of it surpris…

No post body was provided.

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#69

Post by sprawld »

lettergram wrote: post #45
jajahusjsna wrote: post #8

Covid is one aspect of this. Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. - Getting a GP to see you in person is now quite difficult (they want to do everything via phone). - Seeing your GP (depending on your area) can involve a 2-3 week wait and waiting in an hours long phone queue. - When you are referred to hospital for t…

> Another is the massive. underfunding of the NHS over the last decade. This has become much more evident post-covid thanks to the backlogs. If this were the true issue, the excess deaths would have been starting at peak Covid hospitalization. In fact the opposite is true… That said, particularly on any bureaucracy- more money doesn’t solve issues. In fact, more money often makes more bureaucracy. Obviously that’s no…

The historic squeeze in NHS funding has shown up in all sorts of metrics: most notably waiting list times - which have exploded over the last decade. Health prioritisation means the doctors can try to reduce the immediate deaths - the major costs being pushed into pain and suffering of people waiting for operations (but not dying, or being rushed in if they go downhill). All of this just kicks the can, and left the NHS at breaking point - ready for covid to break it.

On bureaucracy - a health service requires administration, so any health funding can be described as "more money for a bureaucracy". The evidence shows that I direct public service like the NHS - concentrating on building hospitals, hiring doctors and nurses and making people well - involves somewhat less administrative costs than using an indirect insurance system (like most European countries, Canada etc) and much less than the dysfunctional private system in America https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2013.1327

Re: Silent crisis of soaring excess deaths in Britain is only tip of the iceberg

#70

Post by zbdngkhab »

julianlam wrote: post #42
sudden_dystopia wrote: post #23

Wouldn’t a reasonable hypothesis try to rule out the vaccine? I’m not anti vaccine, I received the vaccine. But if excess death is creeping and it’s not Covid, would t that be one of the first things to rule out? They don’t even indicate that was ruled out, just completely ignored.

Why jump to it when simpler explanations exist? Delays in diagnosis or no diagnosis at all is likely a more fitting explanation.

Mass inoculation with a new type of vaccine that behaved very differently than the science hypothesized is also a very simple explanation.

I don't really think anyone here has the ability or expertise to judge which is more fitting.

For what it's worth, the fact circulatory issues is mentioned in the article should ring alarm bells for COVID vaccines being a potential cause.

We just found out recently the prevalence of myocarditis among teenage boys that get the vaccine is extremely high compared to what was expected.

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