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The Merge

ethereum.org

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Re: The Merge

#261

Post by bawolff »

Banana699 wrote: post #232
bawolff wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Concept #3 : Bitcoin utilized super-smart magic from several apparently-unrelated fields of CS to make the fantastical spreadsheet from concept Not really. Bitcoin (i.e. the original satoshi version) is hashcash, data structure merging and some game theory. Its an ingenious system, no doubt, but its ingenious because it put together some really well known building blocks in a smart way. It definitely did not use su…

Bitcoin effectively invented, completely from scratch with no precedents I'm aware of, a probabilistic Atomic Total-Order Broadcast algorithm, that's a pretty damn advanced Distributed Systems problem to me, and a solution that was never investigated in Distributed Systems orthodox literature before it as far as I know. So, in no way "really well known". And public-private crypto & hash pointer data structures are bo…

> Bitcoin effectively invented, completely from scratch with no precedents I'm aware of, a probabilistic Atomic Total-Order Broadcast algorithm,

Yes, the new thing bitcoin invented was novel and quite interesting. I'm not sure that is the words i would use to name it, but the result still stands.

> Just because the public APIs of those things can be explained in an afternoon doesn't mean at all that they aren't advanced concepts

Of course not. They are advanced concepts because they are some of the most basic concepts in the field and used throughout the industry. Hash functions are so prevalent that we literally have special x86 instructions just to speed up calculating sha256.

Compare for example to things like ZK-SNARKs, or homomorphic encryption which are actually cutting edge cryptography.

Re: The Merge

#262

Post by littlestymaar »

numlock86 wrote: post #5

> The Merge will reduce Ethereum's energy consumption by ~99.95%. That's something Bitcoin needs ... or even better get rid of it altogether. https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/

By moving to PoS, they are also moving from a permissionless blockchain (anybody can participate) to a pay-to-play one (if you want to be in, you need to pay the insiders), this obviously benefits the current holders.

Re: The Merge

#263

Post by blobster »

There seem to be at least two big issues with the upcoming merge:

1 - Stablecoin issuers like USDC can de facto determine which chain succeeds in case of a fork (PoW vs PoS)

2 - 70% of validators are US-based, and as custodians, they will have to comply with OFAC.

More info in this Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/milessuter/status/1560070819518234624

Re: The Merge

#264

Post by dcow »

Cantinflas wrote: post #259
dcow wrote: post #253

I predict this is the beginning of the end for Ethereum. First we will see what the intrinsic value of a blockchain is. Then the network will die when someone buys the 2/3rds of the validators for less than Visa makes in a day. It will probably just be Visa. Code is not law, money is. This is the core value on the network and has been for quite awhile now.

You'd need billions to buy a significant %...

Not after we learn the intrinsic value of the network.

Re: The Merge

#265

Post by redox99 »

tzs wrote: post #153
bhaak wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the nodes that have been online long enough will know that the fake chain is fake. Because it doesn't match the state that they have been observing all along. So as long as you have no extended downtime, your nodes know what the right chain has to look like. Ethereum dynamically adds checkpoints so that block reorgs can't reach too far into the past but that is mostly a convenience function as it alone couldn't s…

Could POS and POW be combined? Say you have a POS chain that functions as your main cryptocurrency ledger, and a POW chain that runs at a much slower rate that serves as a ledger to periodically record history of the POS chain?

That's polygon basically (which uses Ethereum for its checkpoints). It's one of the most used chains.

Re: The Merge

#266

Post by Sargos »

swznd wrote: post #258
rglullis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only controversial in the minds of purists/"maximalists" who are too invested in BTC. Their arguments would be something like: - PoS is not "decentralized" nor "democratic", because it means that only those with capital can participate in the network consensus building. This is "technically correct", but (a) it ignores that existing PoW also require massive amounts of capital to deploy mining facilities and (b)…

In PoS the rich can become validator as long as they have money. The limit is money. In PoW, they can’t buy gpu as long as they have money, because there is another limit that money can’t always buy, energy, resources, needs (gpu for gamers, researchers, etc)

> In PoS the rich can become validator as long as they have money. The limit is money.

> In PoW, they can’t buy gpu as long as they have money, because there is another limit that money can’t always buy, energy, resources, needs (gpu for gamers, researchers, etc)

Just to elaborate, the implications of this are that PoW has an extra layer of centralization that threatens the network as ASICs/GPUs are only produced by less than a dozen companies and they can pick and choose who gets what kind of hardware and when (including keeping the best for themselves). This ensures that mining cannot be a level playing field and economies of scale will take over long term. This is even ignoring the massive corruption in the energy markets.

On the other hand PoS only requires one resource which nobody has a monopoly on so anyone can stake with nearly zero overhead. It's a level playing field regardless of size or political connections which allows for a much greater distribution of actors.

Re: The Merge

#268

Post by littlestymaar »

jmathai wrote: post #10
y42 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quote The Merge will reduce Ethereum's energy consumption by ~99.95%.

Multitudes of miners will no longer race to find the next computationally expensive hash. Proof of Stake does address the energy concerns of crypto.

At the expense of the “permissionless” nature of crypto, moving from “anybopdy can join with his GPU” to “you must pay the insiders to join the party”.

I also reveals how centralized ethereum really is in terms of who holds the power: a blockchain where the devs can screw the miners like this isn't really reassuring…

Bitcoin's carefully crafted balance of power (and the disapearance of Satoshi) lead to a technological deadlock where nothing can really change, while Ethereum's totalitarian governance model allows it to iterate on the technology, but lost the freedom ideal in the process …

Re: The Merge

#269

Post by mattwilsonn888 »

WFHRenaissance wrote: post #230
mattwilsonn888 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only when explaining to laymen can you make PoS, and Ethereum's implementation of it, sound reasonable, open and secure.

Yeah I veiled a lot of complexity for sure, but honestly that's for the best. If we talked too in-depth about the implementation of most protocols, I'm sure we'd find something to scoff about XD.

I think its for the worst that most people would rather gloss over the fundamental flaws in Bitcoin, Ethereum and most other chains. They are significant and important.

Re: The Merge

#270

Post by latchkey »

Szpadel wrote: post #177
wmf wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no opportunity to realistically experiment with the change beforehand Yeah, it's a shame they couldn't test the merge three times on the Ropsten, Sepolia, and Goerli testnets.

if someone would find some critical flaw, wouldn't burn it on public testnet, but wait till it's possible to exploit with major profit on mainnet

exactly this.

even better, their own test suites haven't passed yet at all... https://hivetests2.ethdevops.io/

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