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What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

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Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#251

Post by fezfight »

roenxi wrote: post #240
fezfight wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed. Its almost a tautology so maybe it didn't need to be said. For the record, I'm a Canadian who went to school with countless Lebanese people in Ottawa. I'm a big fan!

1) The cause of all human suffering is desire. The Buddhists have been pointing that out for millennia. 2) Greed is pretty much constant, people have been extremely greedy forever. The cause is the thing that changed to allow that greed to be channelled negatively. We've figured out how to channel greed for positive ends - in the process called a 'modern economy'. Greed is just a fuel, the issue is whether it is burn…

But uh, wouldn't it be greed that makes us desire things? Not to question your religion or anything, but just curious. Cheers.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#252

Post by fezfight »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #129
fezfight wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the cause of all human on human suffering since the dawn of time is greed. Its almost a tautology so maybe it didn't need to be said. For the record, I'm a Canadian who went to school with countless Lebanese people in Ottawa. I'm a big fan!

Greed cannot account for all of it. Ignorance, for example, comes to mind instantly.

Ignorance of what though? How airfoils work? Or how to speak french? Ignorance of how acting on your urge to be greedy results in suffering? Sure. But I think the greed is still the thing causing the bad here.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#253

Post by bradwood »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #137
suzzer99 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of places with high ethnic/religious diversity have thrived: Singapore, Istanbul, New York City, (increasingly) the capitals of Western Europe. Teotihuacan, the largest pyramid complex outside of Egypt, was a multi-cultural city where different religions, languages and ethnicities lived side by side for 1000 years. It can be done.

> Plenty of places with high ethnic/religious diversity have thrived: What you say is true but besides the point. There's no argument to be made against ethnic/religious diversity. But there is a problem with foreign interference that stokes ethnic tension. My own London is perhaps the most successful multi-cultural population in the world. We don't have RPG attacks on schools because we don't have superpowers spendi…

> Hoxton Crips

LOL.

Not forgetting the Chelsea Gym Rats, the West End Wide Boys, the Hackney Pirates, the East End Geezahs, the Brixton Yardies, the Camden Punks, the Camberwell Carrots, etc

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#254

Post by bradwood »

nradov wrote: post #70
kamaal wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because voting is just a small part of Democracy. Democracies need strong and independent, judicial, law making and executive branches. Voting itself is an averaging process, and you get the average of what ordinary citizen wants. It is hard to make people want good things for themselves without proactive investments in education and developing a population with scientific temper.

Separation between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government appears to be a good practice. However, the UK doesn't really have that: Parliament controls everything. And they seem to have a fairly stable and functional democracy.

The don't control monetary policy

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#255

Post by random314 »

rayiner wrote: post #97
chadash wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We talk a lot about separation of powers, the constitution, etc. in the US, but until pretty recently, we failed to appreciate the fact that democracy is largely a cultural thing. It works because we believe it works. Go and read the Soviet Constitution of 1936 (Stalin) [1]. It talks about freedom of speech, freedom of press, assembly, demonstrations. It actually goes much further than the US constitution. It talks a…

I think this fact is more well recognized outside the west than inside it. Fareed Zakaria predicted the failure of the democracy experiments in iraq and afghanistan back in 2003: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Freedom . Those predictions were widely shared among the Muslim diaspora in the U.S. The british sent their criminals to Australia (a harsh island continent) and they turned it into a thriving libe…

> The british sent their criminals to Australia (a harsh island continent) and they turned it into a thriving liberal democracy.

A misconception. Most people who moved to Australia were not criminals. Contrast that with Germany, which turned itself into a genocide state through the influence of European culture.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#256

Post by ROARosen »

Apocryphon wrote: post #248
ROARosen wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Wikipedia[0]: Under President Arafat, the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority adopted the 2003 Amended Basic Law, which stipulates Islam as the sole official religion in Palestine and the principles of Islamic sharia as a principal source of legislation. The draft Constitution contains the same provisions. The draft Constitution was formulated by a Constitutional Committee, established by Arafat in 1999 and en…

So, after the Lebanese Civil War already ended.

Arafat was chairman of the PLO from the 1960's, before the Lebanese Civil War started. These were his policies.

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#257

Post by Apocryphon »

ROARosen wrote: post #256
Apocryphon wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, after the Lebanese Civil War already ended.

Arafat was chairman of the PLO from the 1960's, before the Lebanese Civil War started. These were his policies.

The dates in the excerpt are 1999 and 2003!

Re: What Beirut was like before the war (2019)

#258

Post by roenxi »

fezfight wrote: post #251
roenxi wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) The cause of all human suffering is desire. The Buddhists have been pointing that out for millennia. 2) Greed is pretty much constant, people have been extremely greedy forever. The cause is the thing that changed to allow that greed to be channelled negatively. We've figured out how to channel greed for positive ends - in the process called a 'modern economy'. Greed is just a fuel, the issue is whether it is burn…

But uh, wouldn't it be greed that makes us desire things? Not to question your religion or anything, but just curious. Cheers.

It is getting into the weeds of philosophy, but they are separate concepts. Entities can be greedy without desire (eg, corporations are extremely greedy, but have no desire) and vice versa (eg, imagine an extreme desire for fresh air - it is hard to call that greed).

But to say greed causes suffering is untrue. The thing to underline in the last 200-300 years is that humans harnessed greed to deliver great results - the successive Asian economic miricles of the last century are not being caused by charity and goodwill! And the techniques that they are using were forged in some of the crucibles of most concentrated greed in human history. And while there was suffering, this was also where progress, peace and comfort came from.

The greed isn't the problem here, it is part of the solution. It just needs to be separated out from the other things going on and properly focused.

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