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Coping with Copilot

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Re: Coping with Copilot

#311

Post by TheRealPomax »

honkdaddy wrote: post #245
TheRealPomax wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not until there's a setting that can guarantee the automcomplete is based on verifiably license-unencumbered source that is automatically tracked in some kind of sourcemap that tells me which parts of "the code I didn't write" comes from which other project and file inside that project. Until then, copilot is a giant liability that ensures I can't use it for code that my company ends up owning, nor can I contribute c…

As a hypothetical, what would that case actually look like? I'm suing you because I have a strong belief that part of the codebase of your personal project was assembled from code I wrote and didn't license permissively, so now I'm claiming ownership? Obviously IANAL so this is largely conjecture, but until we _actually_ see how this would play out in court, I'm leaning towards this being less of a legal issue than f…

As hypetheticals:

- "you were hired to write code for us, not to use an autocomplete service that makes us liable for both copyright and patent lawsuits, I hope you like getting fired."

- "as per this project's license, we can only take code on board that you contributed under our license, but an audit shows that your PR/MRs contain tons of GPL/MIT/Whatever licensed code instead. We're going to have to back all of that out, and we're going to revoke your contributor status"

- etc.

If you don't know where the code in your autocomplete comes from (and copilot can autocomplete large swathes of code) then literally anything that comes out of "you didn't write this code" may apply. From fraud (depending on what contract you signed) to trademark infringement, to license violations, to even just simply misrepresenting your skills to an employer. As with all things, it's a sliding scale, but just because the majority of incidents will be on the bening part of the spectrum doesn't mean the litigating part doesn't exist, and that's what your legal department plans for.

Work for a big company? Good bet you're not allowed to use copilot. And depending on the company, not even "for your personal projects" because you might accidentally read someone else's license encumbered code that you would not have come up with yourself and may now open your employer up to "you stole our ideas instead of properly crediting/paying for licenses".

Copilot is a legal nightmare.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#312

Post by s3p »

This article is giving me a headache. I understand the narrator's frustration but wonder why they have to write in such an animated and confusing way. Seems like they think they're making a script for a tiktok instead of an article.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#313

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #89

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

> After 30 years, actually writing code is perhaps the easiest part of my job. The mechanics is the easy part.

Actually Copilot can really help people like you.

Even if the mechanics is the easy part, knowing how to touch type and knowing an editor like vim, can help you get your thoughts from your mind into code faster.

Copilot can do the same thing. It can act as a super powerful text editor augmentor to get your thoughts into code faster.

Just because the straight ways of a racing course aren’t the most challenging, doesn’t mean that going faster on them won’t improve your racing performance.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#314

Post by Aeolun »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #89

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

> I doubt I'm its intended audience. After 30 years, actually writing code is perhaps the easiest part of my job.

I think that’s exactly the intended audience. Copilot just cannot write code for me, but it’s really good at inferring patterns and giving me the next step.

All the boring repetitive coding has disappeared.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#315

Post by j-bos »

throwaway675309 wrote: post #261
tgv wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run That's a very limited, and dismissive view. If you allow students to use copilot, you're handing out certificates or diplomas to people who can't code. That will very quickly erode the value of your institute's certification, and with it, that of the other students. Otherwise, why not give everyone an MSc in CS…

While it would likely be prohibitively expensive, I really wish there was an independent board that would certify software engineering as a certification and required an oral defense in the same style as a PhD. I recognize that it's kind of gatekeeping but it feels like more and more diploma mills are just hanging out degrees, not to mention all the coding camps out there.

As someone who has excelled in non credentialled industries and seen enough credentialed proffessionals coast by, I much prefer that companies do their diligence in hiring and firing, rather than ousourcing it to central regulatory body destined to ossify.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#316

Post by [deleted] »

skybrian wrote: post #218
Guest42 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was trained using source code whose licenses don't permit such usage.

This is unclear. I have never seen an open source license that was explicit about this. Seems like a grey area. It's not even clear how often training machine learning algorithms on code results in copyright violations. CoPilot does have a setting to detect and disallow direct copying, but how well does it work? This legal uncertainty is enough that I wouldn't advise using it, but maybe people who use it will be fine…

[deleted]

Re: Coping with Copilot

#317

Post by Aeolun »

robocat wrote: post #294
nemothekid wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, someone who has Stanford or Harvard on their resume is virtually guaranteed an interview. The funny thing is though - the CS programs at Stanford or Harvard are more research based than anything and hardly teach students to code. You are forced to take maybe 1 or 2 "learn to code" courses and everything else is just math/theory or assumes you can code anyways. And that shouldn't be a surprise; it doesn't…

> there are plenty of 15 year olds who can pass leetcode style interviews Are you sure?

Given the month of preparation that normal candidates do? Sure. That’s basically what they do every time they have to take a test about a subject that doesn’t interest them.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#318

Post by shmoogy »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #185
baby wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re writing code you are the audience for copilot. Just try it

This sounds kind of creepy culty. I think it's the pushing "just try it" vs merely reporting "I like it".

It saves me more time than the monthly cost of the service. I've never tried things like Jedi or copilot before - I definitely enjoy it more than I thought I would.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#319

Post by bigDinosaur »

LtWorf wrote: post #292
throwaway675309 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it would likely be prohibitively expensive, I really wish there was an independent board that would certify software engineering as a certification and required an oral defense in the same style as a PhD. I recognize that it's kind of gatekeeping but it feels like more and more diploma mills are just hanging out degrees, not to mention all the coding camps out there.

That's how it works in italy. The bad side is that to be an engineer you have to pay a yearly fee as well :D

Being an actual engineer (software) is different to just being a software engineer, and the former is very commonly highly regulated.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#320

Post by giancarlostoro »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #89

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

> using the standard library

This is why I care more that you can tell me about the algorithm at a high level, and reasons to use it. I don't care about you writing code outside of a computer. I don't write code on paper and then write it in my editor. I open up my browser, look up the documentation and refresh my understanding of the algorithm to make sure I am not overlooking anything. I do some research to figure out if I even need it, maybe there's some even superior way to do what I'm trying to do in my programming language at that moment.

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