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Coping with Copilot

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Re: Coping with Copilot

#171

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

Copilot doesn't change the fact that trivial questions (such as 'write a Fibonacci function') can already be googled.

What I don't know (I can't try the 'free' Copilot without providing a credit card), is how well it understands unusual constraints and separate pieces of C++ classes that make the real programs we write.

For instance, a simple test would be: "write a fibonacci function but skip the number 5". Does it do the right thing?

Another challenge would be a C++ class with several fields. That's what our real programs look like: composite data objects, mixing several different algorithms together to implement complex behavior.

Maybe my data structure has a hash table of items, as well as a direct link to the largest item. When I say: "write the function to insert a new item in the list, and remember to update the largest item if it is larger than the current one", would Copilot do the right thing? Each step is easy in itself (adding an element to a hash, comparing an item to another one).

Re: Coping with Copilot

#172
post #126

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

> if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run That's a very limited, and dismissive view. If you allow students to use copilot, you're handing out certificates or diplomas to people who can't code. That will very quickly erode the value of your institute's certification, and with it, that of the other students. Otherwise, why not give everyone an MSc in CS…

A lot of CS education is limited by students' ability to code.

If everyone was great at coding after a year or two, you could do a lot more algorithm analysis,theory, engineering principles, mathematics and other sciences, etc.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#173
And old colleague of mine used to teach CS, when students had to send off code they'd written to Cambridge University for it to be compiled and run, and the results were then returned, all by post.

Then you were able to compile and run code locally on your machine. Then the IDEs came along, with syntax highlighting and then linting.

Copilot is just the next evolution in writing code, and saving you the effort. I bet they railed against Timsort and it's inclusion in the Python standard library, but now who honestly writes their own sorting algorithms?

This kind of generational gap reminds me so much of the "Kids are spending too much time reading" > "Kids are spending too much time watching TV" > "Kids are spending too much time on their phones" rants.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#174
post #126

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

> if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run That's a very limited, and dismissive view. If you allow students to use copilot, you're handing out certificates or diplomas to people who can't code. That will very quickly erode the value of your institute's certification, and with it, that of the other students. Otherwise, why not give everyone an MSc in CS…

> If you allow students to use copilot, you're handing out certificates or diplomas to people who can't code. That will very quickly erode the value of your institute's certification, and with it, that of the other students.

Very true. Like it or not, the reputation of educational institutions plays a significant role in candidate selection processes at many companies. If a company brings in 10 graduates from a local college and discovers that 7/10 of them can’t actually write basic code, they’re going to become more hesitant to bring in other graduates from that college. Meanwhile, someone who has Stanford or Harvard on their resume is virtually guaranteed an interview. Reputation matters far more than I ever thought it would.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#175

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

Copilot doesn't change the fact that trivial questions (such as 'write a Fibonacci function') can already be googled. What I don't know (I can't try the 'free' Copilot without providing a credit card), is how well it understands unusual constraints and separate pieces of C++ classes that make the real programs we write. For instance, a simple test would be: "write a fibonacci function but skip the number 5". Does it…

I (surprisingly) could not get it to generate a Fibonacci function that skips 5.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#176
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few issues with this kind of assignment. The first issue is that it's really hell on the TAs with all of the administrative work needed to do the swapping between phases. Software engineering is already one of the more annoying classes to TA, and this makes it even less palatable. The bigger issue is that, on the basis of fairness, you grade in later phases is very heavily dependent on factors that are ou…

I would expect that code you get from Stage N-1 is functional across a range of tests that are agreed upon upfront. For the fairness aspect, I would also let students pick any Stage N-1 that is not their previous N-1. That would also teach em that not all is created equal (and probably identify approaches / ideas that they can incorporate in their work)

I love this idea. Maybe some extra credit if your Stage N-1 is the most popular choice?

Re: Coping with Copilot

#177
Doing algorithms and functions are the least of my worries as a web developer. I need a copilot that helps me determine which kind of ui elements i need to help with task. I need it to automate standard issues like make login functionality invludkng two factor or to determine data structures for a novel problem. That’d be great.

Re: Coping with Copilot

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been writing code for nearly as long and man, you have to try it. It's more like autocomplete on roids than something that generates Fibonacci methods automagically.

I will try it at some point, but I have... feelings... about its abuse of open source licenses software as a learning set. Also I work in Rust these days, and use CLion. Not sure if it would be much help in that environment.

How is it abusive?

Re: Coping with Copilot

#179

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

If you’re writing code you are the audience for copilot. Just try it

Re: Coping with Copilot

#180
post #126

I understand the problem here and I sympathize with professors in these circumstances. Learning the fundamentals will remain important. But as others have pointed out: if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run. One thing tho is that things like Copilot put the lie to the hypothesis (propagated mostly by the Google-style job interview) that intensely codi…

> if students are unwilling to learn, or are taking shortcuts, it will ultimately hurt them in the long run That's a very limited, and dismissive view. If you allow students to use copilot, you're handing out certificates or diplomas to people who can't code. That will very quickly erode the value of your institute's certification, and with it, that of the other students. Otherwise, why not give everyone an MSc in CS…

"you're handing out certificates or diplomas to people who can't code"

The diploma is not issued after only the 101 course.

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