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“Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

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Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#171
post #56
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think he's wrong? He's essentially saying IT systems need to be designed with the expectation that cryptographic algorithms will be attacked and may need to be replaced, as I understand it.

If by "crypto agility" one means "we should research diverse cryptographic primitives and constructions so that we can be ready if something we rely upon breaks", nobody disagrees with that. But that's not what Schneier means. What he says instead is that "it’s vital that our systems be able to easily swap in new algorithms when required". That approach has a virtually unbroken track record of failure. It demands neg…

I see what you mean. I'm not seeing that in this particular article, but without getting sidetracked by whether he's said that before - I think there are two flavors of agility here.

You're arguing against runtime agility. That makes sense; in fact, the more runtime agility you have, the less design-time agility you have, because all that dynamic negotiation is quite the constraint - and as you point out, a source of flaws.

Even negotiation has flavors. Classic TLS tried to make supporting old ciphers "secure", but even negotiation in which you assume the attacker _can_ control the cipher can be useful - the point then being not to do so long-term, but merely as a technique to allow non-instantaneous roll-out world wide. There's a difference between trying to support but never use legacy stuff and also refusing to specify the current gold standard, and merely having a protocol that supports multiple ciphers only to the extent necessary to occasionally replace a single old configuration with a single new one.

I'm not sure whether there's a huge difference between merely supporting research diversity, and having non-runtime but design-time agility. Perhaps those are the same thing. I guess it gets interesting where encryption primitives aren't just ephemeral communication tools, but a more intrinsic part of the software (such as in signing, and especially in stuff like blockchains) - is there a way to have at least the option of swapping primitives without weakening the guarantees today?

In any case; thanks for the clarification!

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#172
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not much of a believer. It's worth pointing out that as the number of qubits goes up, so too does the error rate.

A larger number of qubits allows us to do effective quantum error correction. The idea is to group multiple physical qubits into one logical qubit, think of it as redundancy.

So what's the number of logical qubits we have achieved working practically then? Is this scalable, or is it just going to exponentially require physical qubits for each additional logical qubit?

Genuine question. I've no idea.

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#173
post #13

If you'd like to hear someone who can barely do long division† discuss this vulnerability with one of the leading isogeny cryptographer researchers and the world's most isogeny-enthusiastic cryptography engineer, have I got a podcast for you: https://securitycryptographywhatever.buzzsprout.com/1822302/... There's even a transcript, if you want to read things like: So I watched the, uh, I watched Costello's tutorial,…

Can anyone do long division other than children and those who pursue math academically? Seems impossible to imagine.

As a kid who chronically forgot to bring her calculator to school for about 12 years straight, I can now do long division well enough that I sometimes do it rather than get up to fetch my phone from the other room. It's also how I do division in my head.

I did pursue mathematics academically but I don't know if it ever came up in university math; more so in physics and computer science.

EDIT: apparently what I do is "short division", which is just long division but you don't write down all the steps.

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#174

That's why I like simple hash-based cryptographic algorithms such as Lamport OTP for digital signatures. Hash-based algorithms are broadly believed to be quantum-resistant and this makes sense intuitively because hashing destroys information. The statefulness of Lamport OTP adds some implementation and usability hurdles but IMO, the simplicity and intuitiveness of the algorithm makes it worthwhile. Source: I worked o…

We're discussing key exchange mechanisms, not signatures. The distinction is important: KEMs are what we need now if QC is a real threat, because they're what enable us to protect traffic from retroactive decryption.

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#175
post #10

You KNOW they first had to do this in the normal way (large scale, distributed servers)..... and cracked it in like a second. Then for grins, the engineer HAD to say "I wonder if I could do this on my old Mac mini". And it worked. And for embarrassment of the original design, the story, and clickbait... they did it on that old machine

The authors of the the attack are primarily theoreticians. The only implementation they provided was a Sagemath one. I don’t think there was ever any distributed impl for this algorithm.

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#176
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its felt like FUD based on FUD for a while. Not really...? Quantum stuff is real, there are real quantum computers that have been demonstrated to really do quantum operations. They're not close to being usable to break crypto yet, but it certainly makes sense to get ahead of it. > There wouldn't be so much effort going into bridging air gapped systems if even traditional encryption could be trusted... These are com…

>but it certainly makes sense to get ahead of it. Assuming they will exist. And assuming there exists math that can't be solved easily by quantum computers that solve all math solution finding problems easily. Surely it makes no sense to adopt encryption no one but a few individuals of questionable motives understand, to protect against a technology that is a long way from even proven yet. IMHO. Anything else require…

Wait, isn't the point of post-quantum crypto to be as good as existing crypto but also be secure against known quantum attacks like Shor's algorithm and factoring. I don't think the goal is to trade off anything for defenses against quantum attacks.

If anything these stories should be more confidence inducing. They show that the rollout is conservative and that the system works. PQC algorithm has a flaw and it is found. FWIW the way existing traditional crypto is proven safe is pretty much the same -- get a bunch of people to work on attacks and weed out the bad stuff.

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#177
post #9

I wonder if someday we will see someone generating all the bitcoins on a laptop. How the article says, the math behind most cryptosystems were never proven to be unbreakable, it is just believed to be so, because no one managed to show otherwise.

Thats true, its a critical risk to Bitcoin, Ethereum etc. The digital signature scheme protecting Bitcoin accounts use elliptic curves which can also be broken using quantum computers.Transactions can be forged using broken accounts.

It's fairly easy to underestimate the time required to change a non quantum resistant to a quantum resistant one.

To protect Bitcoin from quantum computers, the blockchain has to be forked as early as possible, with all blocks re-signed with quantum resistant digital signature schemes. Devil is in the details though.

The Doge Protocol project will fork Bitcoin and move it to a quantum resistant hybrid scheme.

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but it certainly makes sense to get ahead of it. Assuming they will exist. And assuming there exists math that can't be solved easily by quantum computers that solve all math solution finding problems easily. Surely it makes no sense to adopt encryption no one but a few individuals of questionable motives understand, to protect against a technology that is a long way from even proven yet. IMHO. Anything else require…

Wait, isn't the point of post-quantum crypto to be as good as existing crypto but also be secure against known quantum attacks like Shor's algorithm and factoring. I don't think the goal is to trade off anything for defenses against quantum attacks. If anything these stories should be more confidence inducing. They show that the rollout is conservative and that the system works. PQC algorithm has a flaw and it is fou…

The problem they are trying to solve is how to do encryption in a world when finding solutions to any and all math problems is quick and easy.

And this article only reinforces the idea that the solutions they are coming up with are just obfuscation that is at best no harder than existing problems.

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#179
post #56
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think he's wrong? He's essentially saying IT systems need to be designed with the expectation that cryptographic algorithms will be attacked and may need to be replaced, as I understand it.

If by "crypto agility" one means "we should research diverse cryptographic primitives and constructions so that we can be ready if something we rely upon breaks", nobody disagrees with that. But that's not what Schneier means. What he says instead is that "it’s vital that our systems be able to easily swap in new algorithms when required". That approach has a virtually unbroken track record of failure. It demands neg…

I don't think that being able to easily swap to new algorithms means negotiation. Signal e.g. can easily switch to other encryption schemes, just as Whatsapp shipped e2ee in a few weeks. After some time, you are forced to upgrade the app in order to be able to use it.

Re: “Quantum-Safe” Crypto Hacked by 10-Year-Old PC

#180
post #13

If you'd like to hear someone who can barely do long division† discuss this vulnerability with one of the leading isogeny cryptographer researchers and the world's most isogeny-enthusiastic cryptography engineer, have I got a podcast for you: https://securitycryptographywhatever.buzzsprout.com/1822302/... There's even a transcript, if you want to read things like: So I watched the, uh, I watched Costello's tutorial,…

Can anyone do long division other than children and those who pursue math academically? Seems impossible to imagine.

This is news to me that people can't/don't do long division. It's simple. I use it regularly to estimate quotients--just run the process to a couple places in your head.
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