Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws • Hacker News Board

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#61

Post by danbolt » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 3:55 AM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

> prompting doctors and health workers to suggest the procedure to those who might not otherwise consider it. Please tell me there isn't a financial incentive behind this. The only thing worse than doctors suggesting opioids to those who might not otherwise consider it is doctors suggesting death to those who might not otherwise consider it.

A hospital administrator might be under pressure from a Provincial government to improve “efficiency” and keep beds available, but your average doctor/nurse likely isn’t incentivized for that sort of outcome.

Canadian elections are generally won in suburbs, so Provincial governments are generally hesitant to increase quality of care via tax revenues. This usually results in discussions of federal funding to improve care outcomes.[1]

[1] https://globalnews.ca/news/8590853/canadian-premiers-new-pol...

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#62

Post by metadat » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 3:56 AM UTC

belval wrote: post #44

pyuser583 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A one payer system doesn’t insulate doctors from personal incentives to cut costs. The details of compensation can easily encourage one time injections over long term care. Even if the injection is poison. I know for a fact that “bounty” type programs are used by Canadian public health authorities, and for-profit actors make money from them. I don’t know if this extends to long-term care scenarios, but there’s nothin…

Respectfully this just display ignorance on how doctors are compensated in Canada. They are paid by the act, meaning that "doing X" gives them money. Euthanizing someone is compensated as a single act so there really isn't an incentive to do it. Most doctors are actually refusing to do it because of their oath (and yes they can refuse).

Plenty of "specialists" make their living this way.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#63

Post by kmonsen » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 3:58 AM UTC

alexashka wrote: post #22

umvi wrote: post #3

> prompting doctors and health workers to suggest the procedure to those who might not otherwise consider it. Please tell me there isn't a financial incentive behind this. The only thing worse than doctors suggesting opioids to those who might not otherwise consider it is doctors suggesting death to those who might not otherwise consider it.

Maybe it's just me, but if a stranger can talk you into killing yourself - what the fuck else can a stranger talk you into doing? Maybe people need to take some responsibility, instead of arguing the existence of Dr Evils in medicine.

There was a girl convicted of telling her boyfriend to kill himself: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tasneemnashrulla/michel...

In general I agree with you, but there are s lot of really people that fall for scams that seems hard to fall for for most of us.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#64

Post by jagger27 » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 3:59 AM UTC

I encourage everyone who’s having a strong reaction to this to read through the statistics[0] of who is receiving this care. Perhaps consider why you don’t hear about the success stories.

0: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi...

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#65

Post by throwaway892238 » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 4:01 AM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #32

throwaway892238 wrote: post #4

> The law was later amended to allow people who are not terminally ill to choose death, significantly broadening the number of eligible people. Critics say that change removed a key safeguard aimed at protecting people with potentially years or decades of life left. Here's the thing. If I want to die at 80 because I don't want to live past that point, that is my choice. Even if I have no "illness". If I don't want to…

How do you tell the difference between someone suffering from depression that wants to die but could cure their depression and someone that just wants to die? Depression is an illness and it makes people do and say all kinds of things they wouldn't normally. What if you are 80 and just have low testosterone and want to die but then you start trt and things really get a lot better? Which "you" wanted to die and which…

I'm all for making people's lives better. But people deserve the choice of what treatment they will or won't accept. That's what informed consent is about. We don't force surgeries on people just because they have a good prognosis; the person still has to consent to the surgery (if they are capable).

Even if there is a treatment with a very good prognosis that could magically make you happier, you deserve the right to say "no" anyway. So let's absolutely make sure somebody is informed and of sound mind before we put euthanasia on the table. But let them have agency over their own life after that.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#66

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 4:01 AM UTC

yardstick wrote: post #59

melling wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope 80 doesn’t look like that for most people. Even aging rock stars are still moving at 80: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Jagger https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_McCartney Willie Nelson is almost 90 and still touring: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Nelson

To be fair, these people are not most people. All have a LOT of money to throw at their health. Also at carers, cooks, healthy living, and all the modern conveniences that make old age bearable. Same with William Shatner, he’s 91 now!

My parents are 78 and 80. Old age is slowly catching up with them. But my dad can still stay out in the yard for hours at the time and until Covid, my mom was still tutoring friends kids and grandkids in advanced math. She is still completely comfortable with driving from my hometown 5 hours to where I live - a place with some of the worse traffic in America. They were not “rich”. My mom is a retired school teacher and my dad is a retired factory worker. They retired at 55 and 57.

My dad still keeps active and he practices karate katas multiple times per week.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#67

Post by danbolt » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 4:01 AM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #33

elevaet wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a very hard time believing that doctors will be suggesting euthanasia to patients who might not otherwise consider it. There is no financial incentive behind it on a personal level for doctors, given Canada's one-payer medical system, and euthanasia is counter to many doctors' interpretation of the Hypocratic oath. You could argue that on a system-level there is an incentive to encourage euthanasia, since it c…

> I have a very hard time believing that doctors will be suggesting euthanasia to patients who might not otherwise consider it. There is no financial incentive behind it This article provides evidence to the contrary: "Roger Foley, who has a degenerative brain disorder and is hospitalized in London, Ontario, was so alarmed by staffers mentioning euthanasia that he began secretly recording some of their conversations.…

I’d note that the hospital administration was mentioning this, rather than a particular doctor providing care. Or, the former has a financial incentive to keep care costs low (especially given the current government in Ontario).

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#68

Post by O__________O » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 4:02 AM UTC

internet_user wrote: post #52

throwaway892238 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does an old man in a wheelchair kill himself? Why should it be so hard for him? What if he fails? He gets to live even longer in more anguish and humiliation?

90% of suicide survivors do not attempt again. Why is that?

Research shows that those who attempt suicide once statistically speaking have distinct risk factors and characteristics which are notably different than those who attempt again; among other notable differences, their last attempts statistically speaking are more likely to be lethal. Simply put, they’re not comparable.

Example of related research:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2020.6051...

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#69

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 4:02 AM UTC

nkingsy wrote: post #42

throwaway892238 wrote: post #4

> The law was later amended to allow people who are not terminally ill to choose death, significantly broadening the number of eligible people. Critics say that change removed a key safeguard aimed at protecting people with potentially years or decades of life left. Here's the thing. If I want to die at 80 because I don't want to live past that point, that is my choice. Even if I have no "illness". If I don't want to…

Many people say this when they’re young. Almost no one goes through with it. Maybe the drooling isn’t as bad as you think.

How is this knowable when barely anyone has access to assisted suicide outside of a few small states/countries? And even then, drooling does not qualify in most.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#70

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 20, 2022, 4:03 AM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

> prompting doctors and health workers to suggest the procedure to those who might not otherwise consider it. Please tell me there isn't a financial incentive behind this. The only thing worse than doctors suggesting opioids to those who might not otherwise consider it is doctors suggesting death to those who might not otherwise consider it.

[deleted]