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John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

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Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#471
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we didn't have the theory or the models, there was no path forward and so it was impossible to predict. Now we have a fairly concrete idea of what a potential AGI might look like - an RL agent that uses a large transformer. Who is we exactly? As someone working in AI research I know no one that would agree with this statement, so im quite puzzled by that statement.

Fellow AI researcher here who personal agrees with OP, there are some of us that are believers ;). I agree that most people in our industry are generally not very bullish about near-term AGI, I think it just comes down to how you perceive the complexity of the problem. Personally, I think it's solvable because passing a lengthy, adversarial Turing test reliably is all it would take to convince me of sentience in a mo…

"Sentience" is a weird word because it's a such fuzzy concept, but I think if we define it properly there are testable answers to the question of machine sentience.

I would define sentience as an awareness of oneself in relation to one's environment, that generalizes to different aspects of self and environment (eg. social, physical etc)

One of the key aspects of intelligence is learning from 3rd-person perspectives - eg. you observe another ape hunting with a stick, and decide to emulate that behavior for yourself. This seemingly simple behavior requires a lot of work, you have to recognize other apes as agents similar to yourself, then map their actions to your own body, then perform those actions and see if it had the intended outcome.

Current RL agents are not capable of this. The data used for GATO and similar agents for imitation learning are in first person perspective. If an agent could learn from a 3rd person perspective, via direct observations of its environment, I would say that would be the beginning of machine sentience.

Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#472
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Understands things" means a lot. Mostly I'm referring the causality and generalization of inference though.

So, what would be the observable, empirical consequences of the kind of causal understanding and generalization of inference you're describing?

The common current example? A text prompt of "A horse riding an astronaut" without prompt engineering. Though I don't think the successful production of this image will demonstrate intelligence/causal understanding either (but it is a good counter example).

Causal understanding is going to be a bit difficult to prove tbh.

Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a lot of potential for transformers in RL. And I do think that AGI is mostly a matter of scale. But I do not agree at all that AGI is just transformers + RL. I don’t think we have a concrete idea at all, and I don’t agree at all that 10 years ago people thought we had no path forward. 10 years ago is exactly AlexNet, aka the birth of deep learning.

I think it's fair to say that no one knows if AGI is even possible at this point, but RL+transformer is definitely the most promising approach imo. 10 years ago no one was talking about AGI, researchers didn't even call it "AI" due to its association with the previous AI winter. There were certainly advances in ML but I think if you asked anyone whether those approaches would lead to real AI it would be an unequivoca…

I'd say AGI is very very much possible because it already exists (for example: humans) and unless there exists a soul or some other kind of "literally magic" (and I'd be doubtful even then) there is no reason we couldn't one day build AGI.

It also seems like unless something goes very very wrong with the exponential growth curve in computational capacity humanity has had, we'll be able to straight up simulate a human brain (probably well before) 2100.

Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your viewpoint is the more naive one and I think you have the burden of proof to argue why local trends are representative of global trends. This is because the non-local argument accepts a wider range of possibilities and the local argument is the the more specific one. Think of it this way, I'm saying that every function looks linear given the right perspective and you're arguing that a particular function…

You are arguing completely beside the original point. Gato was just meant as one surprising example out of many to show how much more the architectures we already have today are capable of. Whether you believe how the scaling curve for this very particular model will work in detail is totally irrelevant to me or anyone else and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I was just pointing out that there is a clear…

I understood your argument, in the context of the discussion we've been having, that Gato was a good example of us being on a good path towards building intelligent machines. I do not think Gato demonstrates that.

Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#475
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is we exactly? When I read these kind of threads, I believe it's "enthusiast" laypeople who follow the headlines but don't actually have a deep understanding of the tech. Of course there are the promoters who are raising money and need to frame each advance in the most optimistic light. I don't see anything wrong with that, it just means that there will be a group of techie but not research literate folks who a…

Can someone please explain like we are fifteen why AGI is impossible, at least right now? Or if not AGI, then something similar to a cat/etc mind? As far as I am imagining it, current models are pipelines of various trained networks (and more traditional filters in the mix) that operate like request-reply. Why can’t you just connect few different pipelines in a loop/graph and make an autonomous self-feeding entity? B…

I spent a month studying AGI on a hobby level and the answer, from what I can tell, is that it isn't possible right now because we can't even model how human level intelligence works. There are also several ways to approach developing AGI and we don't even really have a good idea on which approach is best. I am not convinced current human level intelligence is enough to ever figure out this model, but I believe future genetically modified humans may have a much better chance.

Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm definitely not saying this is already the ultimate solution. But if you look at their scaling experiments and extrapolate the results, it roughly shows how a model with number of parameters on the same order of magnitude as the human brain could more or less achieve overall human level performance. Of course that doesn't mean the architecture has to extrapolate, but it's definitely a path worth walking unle…

Except it is pretty naive to extrapolate like that. A high order polynomial looks flat if you zoom in enough. You can't extrapolate far beyond what you have empirical data for without potentially running into huge problems.

You're missing the point.

The point isn't that we can or cannot extrapolate. The point is that it is worth investigating to see if the trend line holds up.

Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was surprised by how bullish he is about this. At least a few years ago the experts in the field didn't see AGI anywhere near us for at least a few decades, and all of the bulls were physicists, philosophers or Deepak-Chopra-for-the-TED-crowd bullshit artists who have never written a line of code in their lives, mostly milking that conference and podcast dollar, preaching Skynet-flavored apocalypse or rapture. To s…

> all of the bulls were physicists, philosophers or Deepak-Chopra-for-the-TED-crowd bullshit artists who have never written a line of code in their lives One of the cofounders of DeepMind (founded in 2010) wrote a blog post that year saying his estimate of time till AGI was a lognormal distribution peaking at 2025. While I haven't personally seen any of his work, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Legg sounds pretty…

I might point out Shane Legg invented the term Artificial General Intelligence, and the title of his PhD thesis is "Machine Super Intelligence".

Of course there always, since the beginning, were/are many, many AI researchers who were bullish on AGI... if you think it's possible then you should try to build it. But often people avoid broadcasting such opinions. However, very very few AI researchers are AGI researchers, historically because it's hard to make a small contribution, and to get taken seriously and get funding: I was told at the AGI conference just ~6 years ago there were maybe less than 10 funded -- they weren't counting DeepMind. ALMOST NOBODY at the AGI conference had funding to work on AGI!

Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#478
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong in the moral sense? He's still there though, right? edit: he is not still edit: he is still a consulting CTO

* To his credit Carmack is a one-person brand and attaching your (good) brand to a tainted brand (Facebook) isn't great * Many believe Occulus isn't succeeding fast enough, and so the years Carmack spent on Occulus/Metaverse could have been spent on any number of interesting projects. Although I'm sure the money was amazing and I can't object to him taking it. * If Occulus/Metaverse succeeds it will be a ultra-moneti…

I doubt Carmack is motivated that much by money. He has way more than he'll ever spend.

Re: John Carmack's new AGI company, Keen Technologies, has raised a $20M round

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it is pretty naive to extrapolate like that. A high order polynomial looks flat if you zoom in enough. You can't extrapolate far beyond what you have empirical data for without potentially running into huge problems.

You're missing the point. The point isn't that we can or cannot extrapolate. The point is that it is worth investigating to see if the trend line holds up.

I think it is pretty disingenuous to read my comments as not wanting to investigate. I definitely do. I did say I'm an ML researcher and I do want to see HLI in my lifetime. But I also think we should invest in other directions as well.
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