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Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

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Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#31

Post by chillpenguin »

Rochus wrote: post #16
cryo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one side the Xanadu implementations over the decades are a complete failure. On the other side, imho some of the ideas will survive and one day make it into successful software projects. Good ideas aren't destroyed by poor excecution.

Transclusion is a very good idea from my point of view. I saw and used it in Ivar Jacobson's Objectory tool and eventually also implemented it in my CrossLine and other tools (see https://github.com/rochus-keller/CrossLine , https://github.com/rochus-keller/FlowLine2/ , etc.).

Agreed! I also use it frequently in my wiki (I use TiddlyWiki).

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#32

Post by chillpenguin »

azeirah wrote: post #28
ramesh31 wrote: post #2

I’m sad that we no longer have any Ted Nelson’s in the world of tech. There’s simply too much money now for smart people to waste their time on “interesting” things.

There's a whole subculture of super cool developers who take inspiration from the whole Ted Nelson, Alan Kay/PARC, Douglas Engelbart, Bret Victor branch of software history; ie, visionaries. Two are listed below, but there are many more. Nicky case is one of the most well known ones, Bret Victor himself is very well known and very active. There're also a lot of lesser known people in the space, - Patrick Dubroy: wrot…

Fitting with your list, I would add the Croquet team, who are continuing Engelbart's legacy of collaborative multi-user software. Some of them are on twitter as well.

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#33

Post by bitwize »

AlbertCory wrote: post #3

Little known fact: Ted Nelson worked at DataPoint in the early 1980s, for a couple years. How many people have even heard of DataPoint anymore? They were hugely successful in the 1970s with their fancy terminals, arguably had the first personal computer, and viewed Ted as a prestige hire. It didn't work out well as they faded into obscurity. He's mentioned in the third person in my book https://www.albertcory.io/the-…

Fun fact: The Intel 8008 was intended to be a single-chip CPU for the Datapoint 2200 terminal. It was delayed so ultimately wasn't used in the Datapoint 2200, but Intel had an agreement in place to sell the chip to other buyers.

So that means every x86-64 PC sold has an ISA with a compatibility lineage that goes straight back to Datapoint.

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#34

Post by bitwize »

irogers wrote: post #13

Quoted post unavailable.

The quotes you chose seem suggest you were trying to insinuate Nelson was grooming those kids. Maybe that's what the author was trying to insinuate as well. Facts supporting this insinuation are, unfortunately, absent.

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#35

Post by mistrial9 »

irogers wrote: post #13

Quoted post unavailable.

I was a kid at some WELL parties - disingenuous reporters, Hollywood opportunists and Ivy Elites are not unknown to the artists, troopers and perverts that actually did lots of interesting things, with society dog-piling in.

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#36

Post by mistrial9 »

bitwize wrote: post #34
irogers wrote: post #13

Quoted post unavailable.

The quotes you chose seem suggest you were trying to insinuate Nelson was grooming those kids. Maybe that's what the author was trying to insinuate as well. Facts supporting this insinuation are, unfortunately, absent.

way of a stretch and not warranted that I know of..

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#37

Post by AlbertCory »

bitwize wrote: post #33
AlbertCory wrote: post #3

Little known fact: Ted Nelson worked at DataPoint in the early 1980s, for a couple years. How many people have even heard of DataPoint anymore? They were hugely successful in the 1970s with their fancy terminals, arguably had the first personal computer, and viewed Ted as a prestige hire. It didn't work out well as they faded into obscurity. He's mentioned in the third person in my book https://www.albertcory.io/the-…

Fun fact: The Intel 8008 was intended to be a single-chip CPU for the Datapoint 2200 terminal. It was delayed so ultimately wasn't used in the Datapoint 2200, but Intel had an agreement in place to sell the chip to other buyers. So that means every x86-64 PC sold has an ISA with a compatibility lineage that goes straight back to Datapoint.

There's a book on Datapoint that I read, as research for my book. I read these things so you don't have to :)

I'm also in touch with Gordon Peterson, the chief architect of ARCNet, which was a pretty decent LAN, way ahead of everyone else.

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#38

Post by jonjacky »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

Instead of Ted Nelson telling the world what everyone can learn from him, I would like to hear him talk about what he learned from the real world. Xanadu is probably the biggest vaporware in the history of computing. Maybe some lessons learned about how he had all these “brilliant” ideas but never actually made something that actual people actually use. But that would require humility, introspection, and self-awarene…

...(Nelson) never actually made something that actual people actually use.

Actually, he did. He wrote and self-published the big book Computer Lib/Dream Machines, which was ubiquitous and influential in the 1970s. More about that book and its influence here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176769

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#39

Post by Cupertino95014 »

carapace wrote: post #25
ramesh31 wrote: post #2

I’m sad that we no longer have any Ted Nelson’s in the world of tech. There’s simply too much money now for smart people to waste their time on “interesting” things.

First off, we still have THE Ted Nelson! He's old but he ain't dead yet. (He might even read this thread!?) - - - - There are some modern day Ted Nelsons: Sean Mcdirmid comes to mind. (He's on HN. Dude, didn't you used to have a blog?) https://www.youtube.com/user/seanmcdirmid https://confengine.com/user/sean-mcdirmid Or Jonathan Edwards https://www.subtext-lang.org/AboutMe.htm There's the folks behind Enso/Luna http…

Correct. Engelbart IS dead, RIP.

If you get a chance to see Nelson, do it. You never know if you'll get another chance.

Re: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past (2018)

#40

Post by verisimilitudes »

ramesh31 wrote: post #2

I’m sad that we no longer have any Ted Nelson’s in the world of tech. There’s simply too much money now for smart people to waste their time on “interesting” things.

If I may nominate myself, take a look at my work, why not?
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