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Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

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Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#191

Post by eesmith »

jokoon wrote: post #185

I haven't heard a lot of those forever chemicals in the news lately, I wonder why.

What news sources do you read?

A search across the last 6 months at HN - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=fal... - shows:

> Pollution: 'Forever chemicals' in rainwater exceed safe levels(https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62391069) 12 days ago

> Forever Chemicals PFAS, PFOA, PFOS, BPA, Explained Clearly [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QuvTjLZaXs) 2 months ago

> 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe(https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-3m-pfas-toxic-foreve...) 2 months ago

> EPA: 'Forever chemicals' pose risk even at low levels(https://apnews.com/article/science-climate-and-environment-g...) 2 months ago

> PFAS chemicals do not last forever [i.e. PFAS can be destroyed](https://phys.org/news/2022-05-pfas-chemicals.html) 3 months ago

> PFAS Linked to Liver Damage(https://www.studyfinds.org/forever-chemicals-liver-damage/) 4 months ago

> Regular blood donations can reduce “forever chemicals” in the bloodstream: study(https://theswaddle.com/regular-blood-donations-can-reduce-to...) 4 months ago

> Farewell, forever chemicals: Researchers aim to eliminate PFAS for good(https://phys.org/news/2022-03-farewell-chemicals-aim-pfas-go...) 5 months ago

> The farmers facing ruin in Maine’s ‘forever chemicals’ crisis(https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/22/i-dont-k...) 5 months ago

> Michigan beef found to contain dangerous levels of ‘forever chemicals’(https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/feb/11/michigan...) 6 months ago

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#192

Post by jokoon »

eesmith wrote: post #191
jokoon wrote: post #185

I haven't heard a lot of those forever chemicals in the news lately, I wonder why.

What news sources do you read? A search across the last 6 months at HN - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=fal... - shows: > Pollution: 'Forever chemicals' in rainwater exceed safe levels( https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62391069 ) 12 days ago > Forever Chemicals PFAS, PFOA, PFOS, BPA, Explained Clearly [video]( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QuvTjLZaXs ) 2 months ago > 3M’s PFAS…

Indeed, you're right.

I live in france, I was at a relative this summer, and TV medias did not really talk about it. Same for newspapers it seems, but I'm not really sure.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#193

Post by DoingIsLearning »

superkuh wrote: post #20

I was excited for a moment but PFOS (Perfluorooctanesulfonic acid, a PFAS) doesn't have a carboxyl group so I guess Minnesota's (US state) 3M polluted waters won't get any respite.

FYI not a US only issue.

Same 3M contamination of groundwater happened in Belgium (Zwijndrecht plant) and the Netherlands (Dordrecht plant), with very little international coverage.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#194

Post by blueflow »

ars wrote: post #75
Teknoman117 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teflon in isolation may be fine, but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm. The replacement to PFOA (GenX?) has also been found in modern Teflon cookware as well. Also, Teflon out-gasses at temperatures well below your average stovetop flame. Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them.

> but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm That isn't true. "Studies show that this coating contains a negligible amount of PFAS capable of migrating to food." https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-food/question... > Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them. This also isn't true. You can't heat your cookwa…

Other HN user who killed birds this way:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32515924 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32516579

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#196

Post by feet »

nfhshy68 wrote: post #195
feet wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else would happen to it?

I dunno.. that's why I'm asking.

From my understanding, when a solution like DMSO with PFAS enters our blood stream it gets highly dilute. Solvation binding of solvent (DMSO) and the solute (PFAS) now has to compete with binding from all sorts of other proteins, fats, carbohydrates, etc.

In this incredibly dilute state, the previous mixture of molecules now spreads out and gets taken up by different tissues. The tissues that take up the compounds depends in the molecular properties of the compound in question, so something like PFAS which are highly lipophilic (iirc) meaning fat soluble, they will be taken up by cells pretty readily as they can easily cross the lipid bilayer membrane but will be stored in adipose tissue and continue impacting those cells and possibly be slowly released over time to impact the organism systemically. This of course will depend on initial dose concentration, duration of exposure, adioposity of the organism, along with a multitude of other factors.

The study of how compounds circulate in this way is a subfield of pharmacology known as Absorption, Distribution, Metabolism, and Excretion (ADME)

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#197

Post by zoomablemind »

sbierwagen wrote: post #4

The paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm8868 The "soap and solvent" is sodium hydroxide (lye) and DMSO at 120 degC. Those are... fairly... well behaved chemicals, but lye is stout stuff and DMSO attacks nitrile gloves. You could imagine a remediation process that uses this process but the combo ain't exactly Dawn dish soap. I'd almost prefer pyroprocessing over it.

>...You could imagine a remediation process that uses this process but the combo ain't exactly Dawn dish soap.

"...The relatively high freezing point of DMSO, 18.5 °C (65.3 °F), means that at, or just below, room temperature it is a solid."

, per Wikipedia.

I guess, it could be powdered before use. Though the whole application proposition hardly fits into a common household let alone kitchen.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#198

Post by saiya-jin »

Auracle wrote: post #173
doodlebugging wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 40 years ago I boarded my horse with an old cowboy who used DMSO as a horse liniment. He had been using it for years any time one of his mounts was worked pretty hard or when someone brought a lame horse to him. He would rub the joints, calves, and thighs of the horse down good with DMSO for a few days and then they were good to go again. He also used it on his wife. He told me that she had type I diabetes and…

DMSO also makes your breath smell like garlic after you’ve had it on your skin. I wouldn’t want to be around a horse that’s had a healthy dose, and I certainly wouldn’t love if my wife had to use it every day.

To fix such a serious issue OP is mentioning for your life companion? WTF is wrong with people? If you are married and will stay together till end, worse things will come along from both sides. Will you just ignore her then or tell her to not ruin your day with her petty issues?

Btw garlic consumption and subsequent breath is fairly common in many cultures for millennia due to its very positive health effects, just not among snobbish posh ones. There are plenty of solutions to bad odor, easiest being along the line of "if you can't beat them join them" - if you eat even just a bit of raw garlic, nobody smells bad to you anymore.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#199

Post by bell-cot »

chaxor wrote: post #149
chasil wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DMSO is not well-behaved. It easily penetrates human skin, and carries solutes with it. Don't touch! "DMSO can cause contaminants, toxins, and medicines to be absorbed through the skin, which may cause unexpected effects. "Because DMSO easily penetrates the skin, substances dissolved in DMSO may be quickly absorbed. Glove selection is important when working with DMSO. Butyl rubber, fluoroelastomer, neoprene, or thick…

I think they meant well behaved in the sense that it isn't highly reactive - e.g. doesn't explode in contact with air. Not so much what it does to humans. We're talking about fluorine chemistry here, so things get kind of extreme.

"Extreme" is when you have elemental fluorine. Vs. nice, stable fluorine compounds & salts. This situation involves only the latter.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#200

Post by zardo »

ars wrote: post #75
Teknoman117 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teflon in isolation may be fine, but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm. The replacement to PFOA (GenX?) has also been found in modern Teflon cookware as well. Also, Teflon out-gasses at temperatures well below your average stovetop flame. Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them.

> but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm That isn't true. "Studies show that this coating contains a negligible amount of PFAS capable of migrating to food." https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-food/question... > Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them. This also isn't true. You can't heat your cookwa…

> This also isn't true. You can't heat your cookware above 500F / 260C, that's it. Which obviously no one does since everything would be burned black.

People do badly burn their food and ruin their pans.

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