Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#101

Post by morsch » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 1:23 PM UTC

breck wrote: post #24

steve-howard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have interned with Microsoft in the past, and am scheduled to in the future. Therefore take everything I say with a metric ton of salt. Obviously my opinions don't speak for them. Most corporations put their lobbying efforts behind or against legislation based on what's in their interest. I don't believe that the public can honestly expect them to act any differently so long as their behavior is in accordance with…

> I think what this highlights, however, is that legislation should stem from principles and the interest of the people (individuals only, please) Exactly. No bill should be longer than a couple of pages. The Constitution is less than 15 pages, no bill should be longer than that. (Or you can pick another arbitrary number as long as it is low). Special interests are unintentionally creating a worse world for all of us…

Your constitution has spawned hundreds of years of bickering on how it is meant to be interpreted. I'm not sure this is a good model for all legislation.

It's like those solutions to fight bureaucracy: it's easy to come up with a simpler solution, but invariably you end up finding out that there's a down side to it.

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#102

Post by majika » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 2:08 PM UTC

sorenbs wrote: post #82

tedunangst wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides which candidates get public money to spend?

In Denmark (and other European countries i assume) we have public founding. Parties who have been nominated for an election and received at least 1000 votes in the recent election, are entitled to receive state aid amounting to 28 DKK (~USD 5) per vote. It seems to work pretty well.

We do something similar in Australia too: http://results.aec.gov.au/12246/fad.htm

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#103

Post by chollida1 » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 2:36 PM UTC

breck wrote: post #24

steve-howard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have interned with Microsoft in the past, and am scheduled to in the future. Therefore take everything I say with a metric ton of salt. Obviously my opinions don't speak for them. Most corporations put their lobbying efforts behind or against legislation based on what's in their interest. I don't believe that the public can honestly expect them to act any differently so long as their behavior is in accordance with…

> I think what this highlights, however, is that legislation should stem from principles and the interest of the people (individuals only, please) Exactly. No bill should be longer than a couple of pages. The Constitution is less than 15 pages, no bill should be longer than that. (Or you can pick another arbitrary number as long as it is low). Special interests are unintentionally creating a worse world for all of us…

> Make a constitutional amendment saying no bill can be more than 15 pages and I guarantee you countless problems will go away.

Then no bill would pass.

The default for a congress man/woman is to say no. The reason bills are so long is that if you want me to vote yes to your bill then I get to write 2 pages into your bill giving me what I want.

Take a 10 page bill get 100 votes and you've got a 210 page bill that has a chance of passing.

With a law that says no bill can be more than 15 pages you'd never get it passed unless everyone agreed to vote for everyone else's pet bill, then instead of one monster bill, you've got 100 small bills which is arguably worse off as it means you've got to kill many smaller bills rather than being able to kill one larger bill.

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#104

Post by tomlin » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 2:50 PM UTC

naner wrote: post #13

Notice that the supporters are software companies and the opposed are Internet companies. Here is a theory I proposed yesterday[1]: Microsoft makes the vast majority of their money selling licenses. So does the entertainment industry. For years these industries (software, music, and video) grew to massive size by exploiting cheap duplication of digital goods and control over distribution channels. Now that further ad…

I feel like people got soft as soon as they saw Apple on the BSA.

A few people I work with were dead-set against SOPA and all it stood for - suddenly, after seeing Apple here, had a completely different, sympathetic opinion towards it. Are you fucking kidding me?

This is what is wrong with movements like these - they are easily bent on self-fulfilling, cognitive dissonance. It's disgusting.

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#105

Post by billybob » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 2:57 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #103

breck wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think what this highlights, however, is that legislation should stem from principles and the interest of the people (individuals only, please) Exactly. No bill should be longer than a couple of pages. The Constitution is less than 15 pages, no bill should be longer than that. (Or you can pick another arbitrary number as long as it is low). Special interests are unintentionally creating a worse world for all of us…

> Make a constitutional amendment saying no bill can be more than 15 pages and I guarantee you countless problems will go away. Then no bill would pass. The default for a congress man/woman is to say no. The reason bills are so long is that if you want me to vote yes to your bill then I get to write 2 pages into your bill giving me what I want. Take a 10 page bill get 100 votes and you've got a 210 page bill that has…

I would say that what you describe is a MUCH better situation. If you have 100 small bills rolled into one, it's easier for representatives to say "I voted for this part, not that," or even, "I didn't see that part of the bill." With many smaller bills, it makes the tit-for-tat more explicit.

Representatives could still trade votes if they wanted, but we would have more visibility into the process. What's bad about that?

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#106

Post by billybob » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 3:01 PM UTC

sorenbs wrote: post #82

tedunangst wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides which candidates get public money to spend?

In Denmark (and other European countries i assume) we have public founding. Parties who have been nominated for an election and received at least 1000 votes in the recent election, are entitled to receive state aid amounting to 28 DKK (~USD 5) per vote. It seems to work pretty well.

Under this system, how can a new party gain traction? Can they spend their own money if they don't have public funding? And if so, why would established parties NOT spend their own money if they have more than public funding will provide?

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#107

Post by billpatrianakos » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 3:18 PM UTC

recusancy wrote: post #33

feralchimp wrote: post #30

There's no story here. The alternative to "supporting SOPA in virtue of membership in the BSA" is "leaving the BSA over the BSA generally lobbying government to enforce copyright protections." That's kind of the point of the organization. If you don't expect AutoDesk and MathWorks and SolidWorks to leave the BSA just to avoid this kind of second-rate muckraker reporting, then ignore the fact that Microsoft, CA, and A…

Apple left the Chamber of Commerce over their stance on climate change. Why is this different? Sometimes an organization that you belong to goes too far.

The chamber of commerce is amateur hour to Apple whereas the BSA actually has a bit of pull. There's a big difference.

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#108

Post by billpatrianakos » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 3:27 PM UTC

Over 100 comments here and most everyone seems surprised? The reporting in that article was complete crap. I don't like Microsoft but I don't see any evidence in this article for the claim that the BSA is a front for MS. That bit was recycled from a claim Some years ago in Uruguay which also doesn't totally make it clear that the BSA is a front.

Aside from the writer's total desperate reaching for a real story, let's all remember this is the BSA. the BSA has been independently campaigning to stop piracy by all means necessary for years now. How is this any shock at all that now they'd support SOPA? It's not Google supporting it, it's big ass software companies! Come on!

So you mention Apple in the title and we're all supposed to be shocked and horrified? We're supposed to be shocked that the company that just had record breaking profits is going to support a piece of legislation that is total dog shit for everyone but huge copyright holders?

Come on now. Let's cut the crap and be real. This is a non story. SOPA sucks, I love Apple, I'm still not moved. Waste of time to read.

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#109

Post by billpatrianakos » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 3:46 PM UTC

Volpe wrote: post #64

tikhonj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Sure, only selling things makes revenue directly. However, policies abridging freedom help both companies scale--by attempting to lock users into their platforms and making it difficult or impossible to not buy their software when getting a new computer, both companies get more people to spend more money.

Could you elaborate on how MS and Apple do this specifically? I find their revenue models very different, Apply making it on hardware + iTunes (Music, apps, movies, etc), MS making it on Software. How do you group them as the same? And call it 'Lock-in'? Edit: for clarity

I think what his message is meant to be taken in the "Free Software" sense. You know, proprietary anything is evil, all software should be free, hippies rule the new utopia and all that. I won't speak for Microsoft as I'm not sure how they do it but what you mentioned with Apple and iTunes is pretty much it right there. What people who repeat this message forget is that this "lock-in" is not bad or evil to many people. Sure, the hackers want to install their own apps and use alternative app stores and all that in which case I'd say find another (or create another) platform. My mother and the vast majority of consumers want to tap their screens a couple of times and get a cool app. It's not lock-in to them. To them it's easy and convenient. Technology is for everyone, not just those l33t enough to hack.

Re: Microsoft, Apple and 27 other tech companies backing SOPA indirectly

#110

Post by tptacek » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 4:23 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #95

tptacek wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gah! You figured me out! Secret shill for Microsoft! The fallacy is, "if they're not guilty, all they need to do is deny it". It's used by the powerful against the powerless way more often than it's used against big companies, which is all the more reason not to legitimize it.

Your boolean logic is flawless. Unfortunately, this is not what we are dealing with. Let's, for example, assume you generously donate a given sum every month, to Greenpeace. According to you logic, nobody can say you support them. Microsoft pays the fees required by their BSA membership and allow the entity to brag abput their membership. The entity's charter is to defend the interests of their members and one of the…

That last sentence is contemptible. Sadly, it fits squarely into the mores of HN commenters, a majority of whom care far less about the truth than they do about whatever nerd narrative they happen to be infatuated with today.