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Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

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Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#81

Post by ok_dad »

ars wrote: post #16
ok_dad wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just like teflon in basically every way. Hopefully not in the bad ways? Is the "ceramic coating" proven to not be harmful?

What bad ways? Teflon is not harmful. Teflon is not the same as PFAS, and Teflon cookware does not leech any PFAS into food. See my other reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32515717 And to answer your question, ceramics sometimes have heavy metals to get bright colors (cadmium mostly). Make sure to buy from a reputable manufacturer.

Thanks, I guess my point is more like: how do we know this new "ceramic" coating (if it is some metamaterial) is better than Teflon for the environment from the cradle to the grave? Are there worse risks we don't know about?

I would prefer to study and perfect our manufacturing and use of Teflon if there is no alternative to it that is much safer.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#82

Post by autoexec »

ars wrote: post #75
Teknoman117 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teflon in isolation may be fine, but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm. The replacement to PFOA (GenX?) has also been found in modern Teflon cookware as well. Also, Teflon out-gasses at temperatures well below your average stovetop flame. Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them.

> but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm That isn't true. "Studies show that this coating contains a negligible amount of PFAS capable of migrating to food." https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-food/question... > Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them. This also isn't true. You can't heat your cookwa…

Even negligible amounts of something that never goes away and builds up in your blood is a problem.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#83

Post by bergenty »

biotinker wrote: post #50
chasil wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DMSO is not well-behaved. It easily penetrates human skin, and carries solutes with it. Don't touch! "DMSO can cause contaminants, toxins, and medicines to be absorbed through the skin, which may cause unexpected effects. "Because DMSO easily penetrates the skin, substances dissolved in DMSO may be quickly absorbed. Glove selection is important when working with DMSO. Butyl rubber, fluoroelastomer, neoprene, or thick…

That's true, but in and of itself, it's less toxic to humans than ethanol is. It degrades in the environment quite readily, as well. If we were looking for a chemical to deploy at scale to clean up PFAS in existing environments, we could do much worse.

It’s a carrier. It introduces whatever is in it to your bloodstream.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#84

Post by autoexec »

ars wrote: post #54
Dan_- wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. There is “toxic” and there is “causes cancer, even outside California, reduces fertility, and negatively affects fetal development.” Just because something doesn’t kill you immediately does not mean it isn’t harmful.

Teflon is not harmful. Period. It doesn't cause ANYTHING in the body. It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest.

Please cite the long term studies on ingested PTFE coatings that assert they are safe. I'll wait...

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#85

Post by powerhour »

ars wrote: post #73
powerhour wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family learned this after replacing a stove with one that had a non-stick interior a couple decades ago. That was a pretty major bummer.

I googled, and I could not find any ovens with Teflon in them. On top of that you have to heat the Teflon over 500F / 260C, and ovens temperatures don't go so high (except in self cleaning but a non-stick oven would not have self cleaning). I suspect something else happened to your birds - probably simple smoke from food residue, which kills birds much easier than overheated Teflon does.

Interesting. IIRC the only thing that changed before and after was the oven was replaced. Ah well.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#86

Post by kragen »

Headline is a lie: as we finally find out halfway through the article, it's not soap but lye, sodium hydroxide. The solvent is the fairly nontoxic dimethyl sulfoxide, so both of these are safe to release into the environment. In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32515659 sbierwagen reports that the reaction requires 120-degree temperatures so this isn't suitable for in-situ remediation.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#88

Post by ReptileMan »

chasil wrote: post #22
sbierwagen wrote: post #4

The paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm8868 The "soap and solvent" is sodium hydroxide (lye) and DMSO at 120 degC. Those are... fairly... well behaved chemicals, but lye is stout stuff and DMSO attacks nitrile gloves. You could imagine a remediation process that uses this process but the combo ain't exactly Dawn dish soap. I'd almost prefer pyroprocessing over it.

DMSO is not well-behaved. It easily penetrates human skin, and carries solutes with it. Don't touch! "DMSO can cause contaminants, toxins, and medicines to be absorbed through the skin, which may cause unexpected effects. "Because DMSO easily penetrates the skin, substances dissolved in DMSO may be quickly absorbed. Glove selection is important when working with DMSO. Butyl rubber, fluoroelastomer, neoprene, or thick…

To be fair to the op - in chemistry well behaved means - it is more stable than nitroglycerin, less reactive than fluorine and less toxic than dimethylmercury.

Aka - won't kill you outright if you are just properly careful.

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#89

Post by selcuka »

ngold wrote: post #38
sbierwagen wrote: post #4

The paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm8868 The "soap and solvent" is sodium hydroxide (lye) and DMSO at 120 degC. Those are... fairly... well behaved chemicals, but lye is stout stuff and DMSO attacks nitrile gloves. You could imagine a remediation process that uses this process but the combo ain't exactly Dawn dish soap. I'd almost prefer pyroprocessing over it.

We just need to boil the world's oceans now

Or just wait and do nothing...

Re: Simple mix of soap and solvent could help destroy ‘forever chemicals’

#90

Post by culi »

Teknoman117 wrote: post #5
culi wrote: post #3

Now that Teflon got sued and switched to a different, probably more harmful, chemical I wonder if we'll want to go back to the OG "forever chemicals"

That's honestly one of the things I wish we could get a handle on. Company gets sued for using and hiding the danger of a compound they learned fairly quickly was toxic. Goes and invents another compound and switches to it without having to prove its safety. After it becoming public that they were intentionally hiding dangers for a half century, I feel we should take away their ability to be given the benefit of the…

> Goes and invents another compound

Bold of you to assume they didn't already have those other fallback options patented ahead of time

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